Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
..........
All above you wrote I was expecting exactly what you said *heh* even trying to push 'what about all the others' when I mentioned "lucy" ... and the reason why is to further show my main point: It is a belief, yours. My own is a belief, mine. any one else who believes differently is also a belief..

No finding, no matter what is found will ever change that, only add something to further be proven or disproven... even when proven if proven will still do just as much good as if it weren't in the first place. Like the boat on the mountain... (and by the way there's video evidence showing it) even if it's in plain sight it does not prove there was a world-wide flood. It depends on belief. Some believe so, others believe not.

(oh, and what I meant with Jerhico was that the walls fell inwards, when by gravity they should have fallen outward)

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
Again, none of the things you are listing are proof that God created the Earth and all life. I asked for evidence of Creationism...you've given me nothing of the sort. You've given me evidence that the Bible may reference some true historical events, places, and people, which was never something I doubted. All religions and mythologies reference real events, places, and people.
Exactly, they both are and are not proof that God exists, just as much as the fossil record are and are not proof of evolution. What's there is there, and what's left is belief.
There is purposely no evidence of God's existence, because otherwise there'd be no faith. Trust in what cannot be seen or proven is why they call it that.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
How is any of this evidence that God created the Earth and all the animals in 6 days according to their kind? None of these even has anything to do with biology...which is where you might want to start if you're going to debate about the history of <i>life</i>.
*heh* I notice you are trying to further go into your supposedly being the one victim rather than the challenger. It never was my intent to make any relation to biology nor history of life.

What I'm going on about is not to even prove my beliefs either. Simply my thoughts that if no belief should be taught in school then neither should the belief of evolution ... whereas the facts I have no problem with like I said.
The difference from belief and fact is simply what is around us and exists, (like bugs and gravity) can be factual, and can be studied.
However, what is not around today and cannot be proven, is only based on belief.



Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
Ok, right now you have proven you don't really know much about evolution at all...considering you seem to think it's related to scientology. That or you have absolutely no idea what scientology is.
This is scientology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
Has nothing to do with evolution, and is a belief system dismissed by the scientific community and the majority of society as utter nonsense. I most certainly do not believe in scientology.
No, I have, you've just further sank yourself into the whole of what you believe. As well as your arrogance of it. I know exactly what Scientology is, and I know that you wouldn't believe it. It has no connection with the belief of evolution, and nor does the study of gravity have anything to do with evolution being taught in school.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
If you have really studied evolution in depth, then why have none of your arguments contained any criticisms of the scientific concepts involved in evolution? Why are you still refusing to cite me examples of scientific problems you have with the theory?
There you go again with your "if only you knew" BS

None of my arguments have contained any criticisms of the scientific concepts involved in evolution, simply because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is the belief of evolution is and ever only will be a belief, while you try to argument 'the belief of evolution is fact' or to further say 'whatever you believe is fact and everyone should listen to you. Why? Cause we have gravity!'

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
Why do you feel that the fossil, genetic, and observed evidence do not support the theory? What parts of the theory do you consider logically and scientifically unsound? I've asked this twice now, why will you not provide me with your contrary evidence if you're supposedly so well-read in the subject?
Now you're asking for proof that I'm 'well read' on the study of evolution?

I'm suspecting you're not seeing what I've been writing. Back-read please. You'll see what I say has nothing to do with the need to prove what I know on evolution.

If you need proof that I have then I'm telling you now, "I do know, and have 'well-read' into evolution, both the truths and beliefs." and me being me, that is all the proof you need. All that's left is your belief of that statement.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
I suspect you still don't understand my point about the gravity analogy. Especially considering you still have no answered my question. Why do you consider the Theory of Evolution a belief but accept that Gravitational Theory is science? What's the difference that makes you so dismissive of one but totally accepting of the other?
I suspect you still don't understand why I say that the gravity analogy was a dumb idea.

Here's what I do not agree in with the belief of evolution and schools, and regarding gravity:
Gravity is real, that's common sense. The study of gravity is real, that's also common sense. The numbers and statistics found through the study of gravity should definatly be taught in classes. Why? Because gravity is still around, it can be looked at how it is, and studied, and gravity is fact. Evolution, I have no qualms of them being taught in school, the show of how bugs can gain immunity to certain pestacides, the study of animals adapting to their enviroment through evolving. Why? Because it's there today, it can be studied, and looked at. They can observe and document their findings. However, this part of evolution is very LITTLE taught in classes. They do not study what's around them and how things will adapt to their environment or built immunities through evolution. Instead, when they go to teach evolution, they do NOT go to facts, but beliefs. Instead of learning what's in front of them they're forced to learn what's believed. The things they have no proof of nor can they prove. Why? Because it's not there in front of them, there is no apes turing into humans around them, they can't observe this nor can they find proof of this. Thus being it is only believed by some to exist. Which is what I do not agree on. I think they should learn only the truth, not the beliefs thrown in because they fail to separate what can be called fact and what is belief.

Gravity is a fact, one that doesn't mean, nor even close to meaning, that the belief of apes and humans must be true.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
I have given you a massive category of evidence to attack. I have repeatedly said: the fossil record, genetic studies, and observational evidence all support evolution. I have asked you to point out what part of any of that you find inadequate and you can't seem to do so. I have provided you with evidence, you have not contradicted it, only attempted to insult me and insist that I am preaching my beliefs and being close-minded. I'd like to talk about the facts, if you don't mind, not what you think of me personally. Why won't you talk about the facts?
Insult you? You come at me, practically calling me an idiot for my belief, and you say I insult you?

Why do you look at me like I have a vendetta against you?
I think that's called predetermination, of course if you get in your head that I'm out to get you/insult you or something, it's obvious you'd not look at what I say and just assume I'm talking about you...

I'd recommend getting that out of your head before, not after.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
Do you need more specific evidence? I can provide that. Here are some examples of evidence for evolution:

-Canine domestication. We know for a fact that wolves are the ancestors of modern-day dogs.
Wolves and dogs are still around for observation, even domesticated wolves are... that can be taught in schools I don't care

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
-Diseases and pests which attack the body or crops. Medicines and pesticides have trouble keeping up with them because they reproduce extremely fast and in large numbers, and therefore have a tendency to evolve extremely fast. If you don't believe in evolution, why do you think doctors always warn you that the flu shot is only good for a year or that you need to finish all of your prescribed medication when you get sick, even after you feel better?
That's still around today... that can be accurately examined and documented today... Those findings should be taught in schools too. It's a part of evolution that can be learnt as non-belief.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
-The platypus. Why does the platypus have both mammalian and reptilian characteristics if evolution is only a false "belief?" The evolutionary explanation for the platypus is that it is a monotreme: descended from the earliest mammals which appear in the fossil record as mammals evolved from reptiles.
Platypus is a strange creature, seemingly the topic of study on many a desk. No one really knows why it's as it is... but that doesn't change the fact that it is... Now the facts of platypus are there, but so is the question of why? ... Some feel the need to answer that question. They've not yet found a possible answer... So they label it as 'could be' that it is a monotreme. Yet, that's still up there... that can be disproven... there's way too many factors to this phenomena called the platypus...

So that means 'that it is a monotreme' is a belief 'that it is a monotreme.' That should not be taught as 'fact' in schools... instead they should simply encourage the study. Yet they really don't seem to care about that...

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
-Transitional fossils. Here's a list of some of the more well-known discoveries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tional_fossils
How do you explain those if you don't believe in evolution?
Well, for one, the fossil record is so entirely bugged with thousands of beliefs ranging from that pig's tooth they believed for a while to be the missing link down to the brantasauras and apatasauras ... even their dating machine, that's made 75% of the times to be mistaken, which is why it keeps changing... and re-changing to cover for past studies and new discoveries. Studies of dinosaur bones and findings are much better, as they have a full skeleton to back claims. Yet why do they still document fragments as an entire storyline of supposed facts and beliefs, only to be disproven later by discovering more or something better? ... Why do they pass off as 'fact' things like the 'brontasauras'? things that they cannot be entirely sure of? ... in cases like the head being wrong, it makes all who wrote previous 'facts' out to sound like idiots, due to one mistake. There's no human who is perfect. They all make mistakes, so what they should do is really find the facts rather than make-up the facts. The study of fossils is and should always be taken with that in mind. It's too hard to seperate lies from truth. (and after all, many many fossils were found in desperation of funds being dropped... they just HAD to find something... anything that'd keep the funds. Sad that so many findings and writings are only there because of greed and money.)

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
-Observed speciation. Scientists have witnessed the speciation (i.e. evolution of a species into a new, reproductively isolated species) of a number of quickly reproducing organisms. How do you maintain that evolution isn't true if its occurrence has been observed?
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
This occurance of Evolution is still with us and can be observed, proven realy and documented. It can be labeled fact ans it's been seen/ran tests on/and give actual accounts to it's happening. So yes, this should be taught in classes.

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
Those are just a few examples off the top of my head. Hopefully now that you have something to work with, you'll be more willing to actually discuss the merit and conclusions of facts. I do still encourage you to provide me with other scientific problems you have with the theory of evolution.
There's that arrogant attitude of yours again. Even the one of your 'self-oppointed' superiority thing. Thinking that all you say must be true, not accounting that some of what you say is merely your own belief. (you should note that when I mention my beliefs I label them my beliefs and not as '"fact to all whom oppose me")

You seem to have not taken into account that all you've said is what I knew already. Yet you are so eager to call them 'facts' and some are, but with them you have to take into the account what you and some others simply believe.

Also of course things not being taken into account... like what you did when I mention Jerico ... I said 'against the flow of gravity' and you instantly came to the conclution that 'it floated upwards.' Not taking into account that it may have been on a slope, or the walls were weight the other direction or some other conclution to believe that it should have fallen outwards, but instead fallen inwards... and of course I would be a fool to ask you to take what I say as truth too, as it could have happened due to any number of things, like a support being loose on the inside, causing it to collapse or something. I dunno... If you need a desperate answer to that, I'd recommend studying it though, rather than take my words, or the words of anyone as fact.

Things of the past cannot be studied... not even more recent pasts... like, and I'm choosing one that recently was popular to save word space: the titanic ship for example... when it first sank they had witnesses... they still didn't believe it could have broken in two despite claims that it had broken... they even went to blame the crewmen operating life boats for them being not filled completely... This was up until of course it's discovery upon which they said 'yes it did break' ... They went beyond just that though... in fact did you know they were labeling as 'fact' exactly how the boat sank down to the nearest minute? ... and exactly how things were? ... "how they can do this without being there" is a question never asked or come to mind. It was simply accepted that they had sources to make this possible... and of course to answer the question of "how" That just needed to be answered. Now though recently they discovered a third part... and from it they say it most definatly had sanken way way faster than they precieved last time... Now if this was true, what of the other 'facts' ... why were they even called 'facts' if they were not sure of them? The only real facts that can be seen are those that can be seen. Otherwise all you've got are stories and beliefs. Just like the difference between evolution and evolution.

That is why I don't mind evolution being taught in class, but I do mind the belief of evolution being taught in class.