Same-sex Marriage.

[lionloversam]

I can't remember the last time I started a debate thread. So, I probably won't do that well of a job. But, here it goes.
I, for one, feel that same-sex marriages should be legal. They are still illegal in most of the states. But, to have them illegal, it is the government trying to dictate ones personal life. People should be able to choose who they want to spend the rest of their lives with. It doesn't matter if it is a member of the same sex or not. It is about love. Do you love that person enough to make a lifelong commitment?

People can't choose which sex they are attracted to. Bi, gay or heterosexual. It doesn't matter. That is something a person has no control over. So why should someone who truly loves a member of the same-sex be told they can't marry?

[Azerane]

I'll be the first to admit that it is a little strange to be walking down the street and see two people of the same sex kissing or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against it, but being brought up in a society where that is viewed as being wrong, and it's not very common to see, I think it simply has that effect. Or maybe it's because I'm straight and picturing a girl kissing another girl is gross to me. Do gay(or whatever term you want to use) people find it gross when they see heterosexual people kissing?

I have nothing against same-sex relationships/marriage though, I think people are entitled to get married to whoever they want to marry. Who's to say that a certain type of person can't fall in love with another certain type of person. It's just stupid, it's basically stopping people from being who they truly are, which is really quite horrible. It's limiting a person's freedom.

[Leorgathar]

I too was raised in a society where same sex relationships are viewed as wrong, but I personally don't mind at all, I agree that it should be legal and much more welcomed. It it legal in Mexico city, actually, and since only a couple of years ago, and I think it's a big step upfront.

Now, as I have stated before, I'm not against same sex marriages, but I have mixed feelings about then having the chance to adopt children and start a family. Don't get me wrong, I think it's as beautiful and caring like an heterosexual couple, and I'm not really against it, but it's hard to foresee how will the child grow up, kids are very absorbent in their development, as well as in the way they're seen as in society.
I admit that I still have much to learn on the matter, and perhaps it's not that bad really, but I can't take that of my thoughts yet. I gotta see good examples for myself, I guess, hehe.

[Juniper]

Legally, I think that if two people are willing to share a monogamous, lifelong commitment, cohabitation, and partnership, then they should be afforded the legal protections of marriage. Otherwise, it's none of my business what people do in their private lives as long as no one's getting hurt.

From a spiritual standpoint, I don't recognize a homosexual relationship or marriage as a valid option for practicing Christians of any sect. Outside of the church, I have no problem with it. Inside the church, I leave the disciplinary measures to pastors, elders, and bishops as I've done far to many cruel, evil things to ever pass that sort of judgement on another person.

But, for what it's worth, I agree that people can't choose which sex they're attracted to. I'm attracted to both sexes. Heck, several years ago I was in a committed relationship with another guy. I do, however, choose to abstain from homosexual activities now.

[Kihari]

The thing about marriage (at least in this country) is that it is a religious construct controlled mainly by the folks in charge of religious organizations; yet being married entitles one to certain legal and social benefits, despite that little thing called the separation of church and state I've heard so much about. Equally beneficial "domestic partnerships" and the like are the obvious solution to this, but in my state and in many others, even those sorts of unions are neither issued nor legally recognized (in case you happen to have been issued one elsewhere).

I don't want to delve into a discussion on religion, but I'll say this: for something I do not participate in, Christianity has a startlingly powerful stranglehold on things like this in my personal life. This makes zero sense to me.

Do gay people find it gross when they see heterosexual people kissing?

No, but I guess that's just me.

[Juniper]

The thing about marriage (at least in this country) is that it is a religious construct controlled mainly by the folks in charge of religious organizations; yet being married entitles one to certain legal and social benefits, despite that little thing called the separation of church and state I've heard so much about. Equally beneficial "domestic partnerships" and the like are the obvious solution to this, but in my state and in many others, even those sorts of unions are neither issued nor legally recognized (in case you happen to have been issued one elsewhere).

I don't want to delve into a discussion on religion, but I'll say this: for something I do not participate in, Christianity has a startlingly powerful stranglehold on things like this in my personal life. This makes zero sense to me.



No, but I guess that's just me.

You can have a marriage license issued by a court system, you do not need any sort of contact with any person in any religious organization at any time to become lawfully wedded. This is not a Church and State situation, there is no respect to specific religion, and non-religious people have a perfectly viable means of becoming married through the courts. Various religions practice marriage, and given that a vast majority of Americans practice some sort of religion, it's just practical that the religious leaders sign the marriage license.

[Raize]

There are gay religious leaders, not sure why marriage has taken so long if it's a purely religious issue. I know people throw a huge fit over gay religious leaders, but I'd argue that marriage has gotten a much louder and bigger argument over it.

I'm for gay marriage, even before coming out myself I didn't understand why it was such a huge issue. People just like to keep others down, sad really.

@ Azerane: Not really disgusted, well, if they are slobbering over each other, but that goes for anyone. Personally kissing in public is annoying no matter who is doing it. It's like, "Move on already and get a room 9_9" lol.

[Kihari]

You can have a marriage license issued by a court system

That to be valid and recognized in this state, a marriage shall exist only between a man and a woman.

^This (ironically enough) can be found in the State Constitution's Bill of Rights; most states have similar laws that also take advantage of the Defense of Marriage Act.

This is not a Church and State situation, there is no respect to specific religion, and ... given that a vast majority of Americans practice some sort of religion, it's just practical that the religious leaders sign the marriage license.

I hope you'll forgive my cynicism, but the vast majority of the opponents of same-sex marriage, whenever the issue comes up, are certain religious figures, their most devout followers, and the politicians who either subscribe to their views or rely on them for monetary and political support.

Every. Single. Time.

You are right; there is nothing on the books interlocking marriage and religion. The same cannot, however, be said for the situation as it is found in reality, which, this being a social issue, is where it really matters.

[Raize]

...the vast majority of the opponents of same-sex marriage, whenever the issue comes up, are certain religious figures, their most devout followers, and the politicians who either subscribe to their views or rely on them for monetary and political support ... there is nothing on the books interlocking marriage and religion. The same cannot, however, be said for the situation as it is found in reality, which, this being a social issue, is where it really matters.

Couldn't agree more with that statement, and also commend you for refraining from painting all religious figures with a wide brush and were precise in your accurate accusations.

There are religious groups out there within religious organizations that are accepting of homosexuality, gay marriage, and equal rights; they're just not as vocal as the side you pointed out, sadly.

There was once a time, not too long ago in the world's history when power was given to very few individuals based on whom you were born to (royalty & nobility), everyone else had to listen to them. This eventually ended (though many including myself would/will argue it constantly attempt to resurface). There was a time when being of African descent meant slavery, but this eventually ended. There was a time when being a woman meant being subservient to men, this eventually ended. There was a time when homosexuality was treated as a mental disorder, this eventually ended (though it tries to hang on). I like to believe that with all injustices, this fringe on equality will too pass - it may take years or decades, but eventually it will pass; I call this inevitability evolution =)

[Lucy]

Yes, of course it should be allowed. I'm in a relationship with a girl (have been in one with a guy before too, I guess that makes me bisexual but I don't really like to label it) but even before I was I've been for same sex marriage. She actually lives in a state where gay marriage is legal (Connecticut) and we have civil partnerships in the UK, but if (big if) we ever decided to get married it'd be tricky as things stand at the moment. Plus you still hear of way too many attacks on gay/bisexual people. A while ago in London a gay man was killed by some young girls, it was really horrific. As proud as I am of this country for having the civil partnerships, we still have a long way to go. I still feel awkward holding my girlfriend's hand and showing affection in public (we don't go over the top or anything, we're not one of those couples, lol) and one time we were in Grand Central minding our own business, sitting close and acting very obviously like girlfriends - when a group of people came over and asked to take a picture of us kissing for their scavenger hunt. Just wow. I suppose at least they asked rather than just creeping on us and taking the picture without us knowing, but I was really really put off by that. It creeped me the hell out. Like we were some kind of novelty :/ I just hate that I always have to look over my shoulder to make sure no one's watching us, but I suppose there's always going to be people that don't want us to be together, which is really sad. Because I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone who they can and can't marry.

And lol that turned into a rant

[shadowland]

They are still illegal in most of the states. But, to have them illegal, it is the government trying to dictate ones personal life. People should be able to choose who they want to spend the rest of their lives with. It doesn't matter if it is a member of the same sex or not.

As much as I'm cool with same-sex marriage, I'd like to point you that you don't need to be married to spend your life with someone you love, thats a crazy assumption to make.

[Azerane]

@ Azerane: Not really disgusted, well, if they are slobbering over each other, but that goes for anyone. Personally kissing in public is annoying no matter who is doing it. It's like, "Move on already and get a room 9_9" lol.

Yes that too, by all means go ahead and give your other half a kiss in public, but keep it respectable I don't get disgusted by seeing people of the same sex doing it, but I think it's more I see it, try to put myself in their shoes, and just get grossed out by the thought of myself kissing a girl But I imagine part of it is having been brought up to see it as being wrong, so there's that background there for it, so I definitely don't see it as wrong, weird to see. I don't know, I'm rambling now

I try not to make a habit out of watching people's public displays of affection anyway, haha xD

[Revo]

I'm pretty sure same-sex marriage in Finland is only a matter of time... But who am I kidding, nobody is interested about this issue outside the US, since that's where all the hulabaloo is the loudest . In my humble opinion, US (and any other country with this issue) needs to get off the high horse, get the damn thing legalized already and focus all that legislative energy and jibba-jabba on more pressing global issues. In the sea of problems around the world, same-sex marriage is a pretty easy one to solve and I'm baffled how it is still around.

[Aurelian]

Legally, I think that if two people are willing to share a monogamous, lifelong commitment, cohabitation, and partnership, then they should be afforded the legal protections of marriage. Otherwise, it's none of my business what people do in their private lives as long as no one's getting hurt.

From a spiritual standpoint, I don't recognize a homosexual relationship or marriage as a valid option for practicing Christians of any sect. Outside of the church, I have no problem with it. Inside the church, I leave the disciplinary measures to pastors, elders, and bishops as I've done far to many cruel, evil things to ever pass that sort of judgement on another person.

But, for what it's worth, I agree that people can't choose which sex they're attracted to. I'm attracted to both sexes. Heck, several years ago I was in a committed relationship with another guy. I do, however, choose to abstain from homosexual activities now.

Instead of wasting space replying, I agree with Pnt word for word. He said it perfectly. The concept of marriage, originally strictly a religious ceremony and status, has been so convoluted by government that it is tough to argue one way or another. Marriage has basically become to entirely different things that we do in one ceremony. Go ahead and get married with some government issued peace of paper. I don't think it matters in the eyes of God. You and your partner need to talk spiritual marriage with him. While the Bible blatantly says that two people of the same gender who sleep together will go to Hell, I will leave it to God to make his own judgment.

[Guntur]

Instead of wasting space replying, I agree with Pnt word for word. He said it perfectly. The concept of marriage, originally strictly a religious ceremony and status, has been so convoluted by government that it is tough to argue one way or another. Marriage has basically become to entirely different things that we do in one ceremony. Go ahead and get married with some government issued peace of paper. I don't think it matters in the eyes of God. You and your partner need to talk spiritual marriage with him. While the Bible blatantly says that two people of the same gender who sleep together will go to Hell, I will leave it to God to make his own judgment.

Agree with the quote and 2 quote above!

I do have a few close gay or homosexual friends and I live in a different direction from them! My points to them are avoid any religion standpoint and belief on marriage and way of life. Most of my encounter are spiritual person than a religious gay person. I tend to say to my gay friends to avoid any affiliation on any religion organization to avoid any inner conflict. The conflict in my opinion and still question are stand between moral, will of life, and deeds in our lives!


If I'm gay and have a conflict against my religion I believe I should be prosecute over my action as my heart devoted more towards Allah/God himself than my own sexuality.

[Raize]

I try not to make a habit out of watching people's public displays of affection anyway, haha xD

Suuuuure lol :P

Regarding religious matters... just because a religious text says something is good or bad, does not mean it is true. The Bible says explicitly, for example, that we shouldn't eat pork, men shouldn't shave their sideburns, no more wearing clothes of more than fabric, no tattoos, no piercings, no statues, no divorce, women are to dress modestly without jewelry or even braiding their hair (funny that Muslims get a lot of flak for this but it's more or less in the Bible too), and no shellfish. That's just a few things too. On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of Biblical passages that support what we would consider 'bad things'.

It has been used to promote slavery. (Ephesians 6:5-9)
It has been used to promote the unequal status of women. (1 Timothy 2:12)
It has been used to promote witch trials. (Numbers 5:11-31)
It has been used to promote the destruction and rape of the Earth and all of its lifeforms. (Genesis 1:28-29, Revelation 21:1)
It has been used to promote the hatred shown to those who believe differently. (Psalms 139: 21-22)
It has been used to promote the hatred shown to foreigners. (Nehemiah 13:30)
It has been used to promote the mistreatment of the poor. (John 12:8)
It has been used to promote the beating of children. (Proverbs 13:24)
It has been used to promote many, many wars. (Anytime in the Old Testament when God said "I have given the land to you" such as in Judges 1, or Book of Revelation)
It has been used to promote hatred toward homosexuals. (Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13)
It has been used to suppress scientific discoveries. (Joshua 10:13, Genesis 1 & 2)

It has been used as a tool for politicians to win over a mindless public.
It has been used to bless countries and condemn countries.
It has been used to condemn people to a prison sentence and the penalty of death.
It has been used to curse the sick. (In the old days it was leprosy, now its aids).

To sum all of ^that^ up, the Bible says a lot of things - doesn't mean they are good or relevant. People just refuse to accept that we CAN pick and choose what we want to follow. You can love Jesus and be gay, just like you can love Jesus and get divorced. Otherwise, I don't want to catch you eating bacon lol :P

[Juniper]

Suuuuure lol :P

Regarding religious matters... just because a religious text says something is good or bad, does not mean it is true. The Bible says explicitly, for example, that we shouldn't eat pork, men shouldn't shave their sideburns, no more wearing clothes of more than fabric, no tattoos, no piercings, no statues, no divorce, women are to dress modestly without jewelry or even braiding their hair (funny that Muslims get a lot of flak for this but it's more or less in the Bible too), and no shellfish. That's just a few things too. On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of Biblical passages that support what we would consider 'bad things'.

It has been used to promote slavery. (Ephesians 6:5-9)
It has been used to promote the unequal status of women. (1 Timothy 2:12)
It has been used to promote witch trials. (Numbers 5:11-31)
It has been used to promote the destruction and rape of the Earth and all of its lifeforms. (Genesis 1:28-29, Revelation 21:1)
It has been used to promote the hatred shown to those who believe differently. (Psalms 139: 21-22)
It has been used to promote the hatred shown to foreigners. (Nehemiah 13:30)
It has been used to promote the mistreatment of the poor. (John 12:8)
It has been used to promote the beating of children. (Proverbs 13:24)
It has been used to promote many, many wars. (Anytime in the Old Testament when God said "I have given the land to you" such as in Judges 1, or Book of Revelation)
It has been used to promote hatred toward homosexuals. (Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13)
It has been used to suppress scientific discoveries. (Joshua 10:13, Genesis 1 & 2)

It has been used as a tool for politicians to win over a mindless public.
It has been used to bless countries and condemn countries.
It has been used to condemn people to a prison sentence and the penalty of death.
It has been used to curse the sick. (In the old days it was leprosy, now its aids).

To sum all of ^that^ up, the Bible says a lot of things - doesn't mean they are good or relevant. People just refuse to accept that we CAN pick and choose what we want to follow. You can love Jesus and be gay, just like you can love Jesus and get divorced. Otherwise, I don't want to catch you eating bacon lol :P

I believe that you're mistaken about Christianity, for more reasons than I could possibly list. I also believe that you've grossly misrepresented my religion.

You CAN pick and choose not to follow Christianity. Even as a Christian you CAN pick and choose not to follow certain rules, but realize that we believe that all people will be judged for what they have done, both good and bad. If, as a Christian, you are willing to face the consequences of your actions, then that is between you and God. Yes, if the congregation believes you to be in a state of willful sin and you refuse to confess and repent, you will eventually be forced to leave the congregation. We are not to judge those outside of the church (1 cor. 5).

Since you mention bacon, Paul did not believe any meat to be unclean as it is all from God, but went on to say that if by eating meat he were to destroy his brother (ie, cause them to waiver in their faith, as many new Jewish converts would), then he would never eat meat again.

[lionloversam]

As much as I'm cool with same-sex marriage, I'd like to point you that you don't need to be married to spend your life with someone you love, thats a crazy assumption to make.

You are right. I wish I could remember what my intent was with that statement. I guess I should of said "People should be able to choose who they want to marry." But, with how I originally worded it, you are right with it being a crazy assumption.

Do gay(or whatever term you want to use) people find it gross when they see heterosexual people kissing?

I'm Bi and I don't have a problem with it. Just as long as (as it has already been said) they aren't salivating all over each other.

[Dare]

Eh, I don't know how the Powers-That-Be regard same-sex marriage, so I'm going to leave Them out of the equation.

That being said:

If churches/religious groups don't want to perform same-sex marriages, that's cool. I think they have a right to abstain from performing rituals that clearly go against their faith/beliefs/whatever. Ye can't force a church to bestow a sacrament that they feel is undeserving.

However, I see no reason why two men or two women shouldn't be allowed to get "married" in a courthouse or town hall - after all, it's not (or at least shouldn't be) a religious institution, right? Ye olde separation of church and state.

Of course, there's the argument over who owns the word "marriage" and changing the definition thereof what whatnot...personally, I don't care what anyone calls it as long as the rights and recognitions are universal. I don't understand why there's so much haggling over vocabulary, but I'm not a lawmaker or politician so I guess bumping up the rights of civil unions is more complicated than I feel it should be...

Meh.

In the end, I guess I just think it's ridiculous that two gay people cannot get "married" and have that legal rights, protections, and inter-state government recognition as married hetero couples. The entire Proposition 8 thing made me grate my teeth too - one year a gay couple is married, the next year gay marriage is banned, and then the proponents of Prop 8 wanted to retroactively nullify all the gay marriages that took place before the ban. Call me crazy, but that just seems wrong to me.

On a side note - does anyone know where I can read an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve some sort of tie to a spiritual/religious belief? Something completely secular? I've been searching for a while and have read a few but I'm always interested in reading more.

Do gay(or whatever term you want to use) people find it gross when they see heterosexual people kissing?

I don't, but then again I'm bi, so I dunno if that skews the results. So long as they're not gropin' up a storm or something, they're fine... and it's not like I going to sit around and watch 'em anyway. I don't have to - I have cable television.

[Juniper]

Eh, I don't know how the Powers-That-Be regard same-sex marriage, so I'm going to leave Them out of the equation.

That being said:

If churches/religious groups don't want to perform same-sex marriages, that's cool. I think they have a right to abstain from performing rituals that clearly go against their faith/beliefs/whatever. Ye can't force a church to bestow a sacrament that they feel is undeserving.

However, I see no reason why two men or two women shouldn't be allowed to get "married" in a courthouse or town hall - after all, it's not (or at least shouldn't be) a religious institution, right? Ye olde separation of church and state.

Of course, there's the argument over who owns the word "marriage" and changing the definition thereof what whatnot...personally, I don't care what anyone calls it as long as the rights and recognitions are universal. I don't understand why there's so much haggling over vocabulary, but I'm not a lawmaker or politician so I guess bumping up the rights of civil unions is more complicated than I feel it should be...

Meh.

In the end, I guess I just think it's ridiculous that two gay people cannot get "married" and have that legal rights, protections, and inter-state government recognition as married hetero couples. Ah well...

On a side note - does anyone know where I can read an argument against gay marriage that doesn't involve some sort of tie to a spiritual/religious belief? Something completely secular? I've been searching for a while and have read a few but I'm always interested in reading more.

You're always a voice of reason, I appreciate that.

You could always look towards arguments regarding natural order. I'm not a huge fan of natural order authority myself, as I believe humans are free moral agents who are free to defy their own nature. But, as a quick synopsis: Things ought to behave according to their nature. Humans naturally form mating pairs with the opposite sex, thus all humans ought to form mating pairs with the opposite sex. Quick notes: Doesn't apply to things like cars and medicine (ie, you can't disqualify the natural order argument by saying that cars are not natural so therefore we shouldn't use them) because tool use is a natural trait of humans. Also, if humans naturally make free moral choices and are not bound by their nature, then this argument falls apart.