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Thread: America: Not religous enough

  1. #81
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    Yeah, and Texas is 8th!

  2. #82
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Yeah, and Texas is 8th!
    Arizona would be up there, too...but they don't count all the money from the Drug and Human Smuggling trade...

  3. #83
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    First I want to state that I did not say what I said to bash Europe...or state that the U.S is the perfect nation. I was responding to the claim that Europe does a lot of things better than us...and I don't believe that is very well supported.

    I will look up statistics and figures and all that later if need be...but the point of my statements..was that I find it hard for someone to say that Europe does "a lot" better than us...when we are doing "better" than they are in many areas. Our GDP equals more than that of the entire EU...and since we SHOULD actually be looking at individual countries ( I notice in some arguements I am supposed to refer to the EU and others individual nations...whichever benefits my opposition)....we beat EVERY country in that area. We have lower unemployment than most European countries, the most powerful military, and our crime is lower in many key areas (you mentioned violent crimes and murders as if they are seperate things?). Our taxes are lower, and historically....tax DECREASES produce an economic boom...while tax increases do the opposite. I even read online that European nations were being urged (by memebers of those nations) to adopt American ideas in dealing with unemployment and the economy. Sounds somewhat like we are being emulated instead of the proposition that the opposite should happen.

    My question is..what exactly are we doing wrong? We seem to be doing much better in many areas than the European nations we are supposed to "look up to". As for your mention about socialized healthcare: I tend to believe that good care for most is better than sub-standard care for all. No one has died because they didn't have health insurance...as doctors/hospitals are required to stabalize someone and stop them from dying regardless of health insurance. You just might not get the most medically valuable treatment.

    Anyways...I didn't mean to get on this sort of topic in the first place. I don't hate Europe..and I don't think that they do EVERYTHING wrong...but to say that we should be emulating them in "a lot" of areas...seems bogus to me. We lead the world in many areas...and we don't seem to be suffering at the moment. I cannot see these "many" areas where Europe is doing so much better than us. Regardless..no nation is perfect...so...I have no problem looking at another country and seeing how something works for them...and then trying it here if it seems better. I don't have a problem with other nations adopting our ideas (which they seem to do as well). I just don't see the basis for which the claim that Europe is run better than the U.S can be made.

    Anyways..back on topic if anyone else has something new to discuss! =)

    ~Kiva

  4. #84
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Zoltan has a good point, SpiritWolf. Why don't you argue as strongly for religious tolerance and homosexual rights in Middle Eastern countries, whose oppression of dissent is, you must admit, far, far worse than that of the United States.
    I don't live there. My vote doesn't count there. All I can do is complain from afar and not really do much. And I'm not going to avoid discussing it with people in my own country just because another country has it worse.

    Zoltan doesn't really have a point at all. Is it bigoted to be intolerant of racism, for example? I consider homophobia about the same thing as racism.

    Originally posted by Zoltan
    *Rises hand*Eer, every country has its national religion and its rules based on certain traditions, so they should be followed, leastways not violating them as far as they want to live there.
    The US doesn't have a national religion. There is nothing in our legal system that states a single religion should be followed. Quite the opposite actually. It just -seems- like we have a national religion because the majority of our citizens are Christian. Additionally, nothing about allowing gay marriage (or atheist marriage as used in my example their) violates a Christian's -own- ability to practice their religion. It's not forcing -them- to become an atheist or gay.

  5. #85
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    Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
    I don't live there. My vote doesn't count there. All I can do is complain from afar and not really do much. And I'm not going to avoid discussing it with people in my own country just because another country has it worse.

    Zoltan doesn't really have a point at all. Is it bigoted to be intolerant of racism, for example? I consider homophobia about the same thing as racism.


    'But you're none of this.' You missed that.

    The US doesn't have a national religion. There is nothing in our legal system that states a single religion should be followed. Quite the opposite actually. It just -seems- like we have a national religion because the majority of our citizens are Christian. Additionally, nothing about allowing gay marriage (or atheist marriage as used in my example their) violates a Christian's -own- ability to practice their religion. It's not forcing -them- to become an atheist or gay.
    [/QUOTE]

    Anyway it's not a matter of religion, but basic moralty which accidentally meets the catholic church's view.

  6. #86
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    Morality is subjective. I do not agree with all the morals of the Catholic church. For example, I don't think it's wrong to be gay. Catholic morals =/= universal/basic/right morals.

  7. #87
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    Here is an interesting bit I found, written by a Swedish economist comparing the U.S and the E.U on this issue.

    "If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA..."

    Given, this report is from 2004...but a look at the CIA World Factbook shows very few countries (3-4, and the majority of which are not in Europe) that beat the U.S in per capita GDP. Also...GDP per capita seems to be calculated for the most part...by dividing total per capita by population. Thus...both population and GDP cause the per capita to fluctuate. So...Norway(who isn't part of the E.U) for instance..that beats the U.S in per capita GDP...also has a much smaller population than the U.S (4,610,820 in Norway and around 300,000,000 in the United States). Thus...if the U.S has a per capita GDP of $43,500 with a population of 300 million...and Norway beat us at 47,800 with a population of less than my state of Virginia (7.5 million here and a little over 4.5 million there), it seems to indicate that we must be doing very well when we are only beaten by $4,300 with 65 times thier population.

    I got all of this info from the CIA World Factbook by the way. So..I don't seem to see a difference here. In fact it seems as if this data actually widens the gap between the U.S and European countries in terms of economy. Also for the record...the E.U's GDP per capita is $29,400 and the U.S's is $43,500. They do have a higher population than we do...but again...we should be comparing individual countries here..not a "conglomerate". It seem strange to me that one would have to group up all the nations of Europe to beat or come close to beating the economy of just one country.

    Anyways...this topic isn't about this..and as I said..I'm not trying to bash Europe just for the sake of doing so. Sorry to interrupt the topic.

    ~Kiva

  8. #88
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    America is no longer a country; it's become more of a corpration. Yes, it's greedy, it's all about money, money, money, and more money. That's the States and it sux. However, I do not feel that America should be religious. This country was built on religious freedom and being free to practice whatever religion you wish. Anyone who says that this country is Christian needs to look back at the Constitution and US history. It may be largely Christian having been established by people who practiced some form of Christianity, but the US was built on the concept of religious and spiritual freedom. So, it's not really fair to call this country any specific religion since its citizens are free to practice any religion and there are many in this country who practice Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Wicca, and all other religions. So, one cannot truly call this country 'Christian' since not all of its people are christian. Many people here aren't, that's why they or their ancestors came here to begin with. Besides, hasn't anyone ever heard of 'separation of church and state'?

    (This post is not meant to offend anyone, I hope it doesn't, and if it does, I'm sorry and don't flame me over it. These views are the views of a single individual.)

  9. #89
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    I'd like to read a quote I've come across recently while reading a book by Richard Dawkins. The following is part of a treaty with Tripoli, drafted in 1796 under George Washington and signed by John Adams:
    As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war of act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    I see so many people continuously insisting that this country was founded on Christian principles, by Christians. It's very likely that many of the founding fathers were in fact not even Christians. Perhaps Christians in name, but not in belief. They were secularists either way, and most probably at least deists, and some of them atheists or agnostics. I have more specific and downright anti-religious quotes from various founding fathers if you're still not convinced.

    Frankly, the "founding fathers," or "ideals that this country was founded on," argument does not hold up at all.

  10. #90
    Senior Member LunarCat's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Sesshomaru
    America is no longer a country; it's become more of a corpration. Yes, it's greedy, it's all about money, money, money, and more money. That's the States and it sux.
    and, which country and/or countries are /not/ all about money may i ask?

  11. #91
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    Originally posted by Lunarcat
    and, which country and/or countries are /not/ all about money may i ask?
    Actually according to the newest research over here, people like takeing their worked over time rather as time off than as money in past few years. They are saying that people set their free time as higher priority than extra earnings.

    ( I'm quite diffrend thought, I make myself work in avarage 25 days out of 30, and take all the extra time I work as money rather than time off... I really don't take time off except the necessery one day off I have to have every 8th day. thought I do keep long vacations when I go visit my love or when she visits me. )

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  12. #92
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    Originally posted by Lunarcat
    and, which country and/or countries are /not/ all about money may i ask?
    that is a good question...most societies and cultures today are part of the commercial world. But you can still find cultures and societies where personal accumulation is seen as counterproductive to society...instead of owning goods and land, most of it is shared for the common good of the community. Some examples would be the !Kung Bushmen in Africa, various Amazonian tribes, and Australian Aborigines.

  13. #93
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    Originally posted by lion_roog
    !Kung Bushmen in Africa, various Amazonian tribes, and Australian Aborigines.
    I love those people <3 Wished the world could live like them

    Also Buddism as a whole and whats left of the Native Americans?

  14. #94
    Senior Member LunarCat's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dyani
    and whats left of the Native Americans?

    one word: casinos


    (not all but some)


    Originally posted by lion_roog
    . Some examples would be the !Kung Bushmen in Africa, various Amazonian tribes, and Australian Aborigines.
    that's really great, seriously, but those still are not countries.

  15. #95
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    Originally posted by Lunarcat

    that's really great, seriously, but those still are not countries.
    That is true...but I feel that grouping by countries is very inaccurate considering that one country may consist of many different cultures. Also, Native American, and some other tribal cultures are sometimes considered their own nations within countries. For instance, the Apache reservation is considered the Apache Nation. They have their own government even though they still have to abide by some of America's law regarding certain issues.

    The ideology towards money is a cultural one, not a national one. You can have a nation that is capitalist but have cultures within that nation where money has very little value to the way they live their life.

    Actually, another way to look at it is that Sesshomaru was talking about American society with her statement...considering a country cannot establish how people feel and view money and material goods...that is done at a societal and cultural level, as I explained before. So if she was infact referring to American society, which all societies are made up of various cultures...then my remarks about the !Kung Bushmen, etc would stand as valid due to the fact they they, themselves, are societies and cultures.

  16. #96
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    Ah yes..the glorification of the barbarian life-style! Not that those people are wrong, or "savages"...but I see the trend of "let's go back to how it was...it was so great!" idea a lot now. That lifestyle is definately not superior to the modern world's way of living. Of course it has some advantages...but I would be willing to bet it has a lot more disadvantages.

    There is nothing wrong with working more often than you take a vacation. It does not mean you are greedy...it means you are hardworking. Of course, if someone gets too attached to material wealth, it can lead to problems...but it is not wrong to be willing to work for and EARN more.

    ~Kiva

  17. #97
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    A better argument would be to say *Well yes, those people live well and respect earth a heck of a lot more than most "civilised" people do now, but would we really want to give up the technology we have gained over a thousand years or more? (ignoring comparably useless iPods etc, more like computers, modern medicine etc)*

    To go against the grain but to speak for the *good of the majority*, it would be better if we gave up a lot of our modern medicine in one respect, those vulnerable to inheritable disease would die out quicker, thus we'd develop better as a species. Natural selection works best, weed out the weak so the strong survive!

    But I totally understand people against this idea, having experinced modern medicine save a person near to me. But its an idea.

  18. #98
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    Ah yes..the glorification of the barbarian life-style! Not that those people are wrong, or "savages"...but I see the trend of "let's go back to how it was...it was so great!" idea a lot now. That lifestyle is definately not superior to the modern world's way of living. Of course it has some advantages...but I would be willing to bet it has a lot more disadvantages.
    Barbarian life-style?...What are you talking about?

    There are advantages and disadvantages to every culture and society. For instance our modern culture has the ability to expand our life-span due to our advance medical knowledge and all...but another culture may have a more advanced lineage system thus making orphans non-existent and the rearing of children much easier.

    In fact, if you look at many tribal cultures, you will find that they are affluent societies where people enjoy the lifestyle. Many people tend to have a view of such cultures as being a very hard life to live...when in fact many people in such cultures don't have to work nearly as much as we do to earn a living and have very rich social lives and enjoy numerous activities within their communities.

    A better argument would be to say *Well yes, those people live well and respect earth a heck of a lot more than most "civilised" people do now, but would we really want to give up the technology we have gained over a thousand years or more? (ignoring comparably useless iPods etc, more like computers, modern medicine etc)*
    Actually, that is not really true. Throughout the history of modern man (from the time tribal cultures dominated the earth to today) people have created trash and used up resources. It's only a lot more noticeable today because instead of millions to a few hundred million people doing it, you have billions...

  19. #99
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    Oh, the irony of using a computer to argue for the superiority of primitive cultures.

  20. #100
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Oh, the irony of using a computer to argue for the superiority of primitive cultures.
    No one is arguing that any culture is superior...unless you can point out where that has been stated...until then your comment is ill-founded and adds no value to the conversation at hand...but you do construct a lovely strawman...

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