Amarica = over religus?

[Shadow]

ok first off

THIS IS NOT A RELIGION vs EVELOTIONIST or something this is a personal thread of mine i want to discuss abut that is Amarica over religus now if you cant keep this thread clean or have to slip over to the "flaming the others opinion" il happly have it closed down...



now you might wunder why am all of a sudden posting this thread well...

my sisters boy friend Dan (famely friend) hirded the follow up to Farenhit 9/11 "yes Michel Moore"

for those who havent seen it Farenhite 9/11 is basecely a guy doing a docementary that

"Bush helped blow up world trade center and etc etc"

then he diged up fakts abut Bush and stuff what happen right after befure and pitcures of him shacking hads with Sadam/ bin laden whatever...

now that was a short for Farenhite "real short" and thats not what where here to talk abut

what i whana talk abut is what i belive a student work.


a collage in Utha wanted to get the folks there more "involved with the politic" and then the "Student leader" got an idea of invating Mickel Moore over" (now this was not cheap infact it costest alot of money and alot of ppl where upset)

but as said it would be alot easier if youv seen this movie "The devided State" or something its called.

anyhow this is like 2-5 weeks befure the selection of bush (so around 3 years ago) and then the whole war broke lose...

we had ppl supporting Mickel moore and then those who loved bush...but acording to me....NOW this is where i want to get to the point..


this movie litherly scared the living crap out of me when it comes to a little thing called religion christanity i belive is what we talk abut...

its really hard to express myself with out taking a party here and am not juding nore saying the others bad " or am trying to please dont take this wrong am only a 17 year old swedish student >.<"

i dont know what how and why the ppl of Utha did this to the students but this is what they told those ppl who supported Mickel moore"


"your liers ,sinners you bring filth, evil and corruption in or comonety "

along with threat hate letters and alot of more un-pleasent things am afried i cant even mention....

let me recap this ...these poor guys says " oh well Mickel Moore might be right abut Bush doing the terror attack with the bombs and i support his theory"

the answer they get

"You Sinners Mickel Moore is evil and filfh sent by the devil to destroy our fine commonety (the state of Utha)"

"but dont we have freedom of speach?"

the answer they got was basecly no...they couldent and there was no freedom of speach...

i seriesly dont know how to bring myself in to understanding words plus that i spell like crap so you already have a hard time reading this but seriesly...answer me this...


WHAT THE HELL! dose Relgion have to do with supporting Mickel moores theaory!?

i seriesly dont know how to say this but this docementary was basecly freedom of speach vs over religus guys....

they never said anything abut relgion and the other party is pointing finger screaming " your betraying your state and religion"....

to get back at the sate of hand this is a serius question as the young ingorrent 17 year old swedish student i am

Is Amarica over religus?....acording to what iv seen in my life so far...yes i think it is...and am shocked by it...


please dont answer what iv typed befure my question that was to give you a reasun to post this so some wouldent get offended that id just poof up with no resun stating this....

but seriesly can someone give me some info,thoughts and fakts abut this becuse am really curies.

so dont think i whana start a war becuse i dont sit up 1 on the morning to do sutsh a stuped thing >.0...

so please give me your opinion without starting a war and i want resuns! not just " i think and thats the way it is"

think of me as a lost child who dont know what to think and i need thoughts and info from both sides....


thank you and if you can fully understand this thread you will forever have my respekt becuse i sure as hell dont get this fully myself 0.o


((and i do appoligse for typing this up really badly with spaces everywhere with no dots and useing shrot thing for pepole as ppl am really tierd and apoligase.

and dont be afried to say if you dont understand or if this whole thread makes no sense i wont get offended becuse i fully understand you ))

[A-non-a-mus]

Well.. I don't think it's 'over religious' persay... I mean it does have it's share of many different religions... but then again there's many that arn't as well. I'm glad you're not judging the majority over a few loud ones though...

Truthfully I've never heard michael moore's theory and really wouldn't want to.

What I find odd though is the ones labeled 'over religious' like those guys, are speaking against their own religion/faith (as being so openly judgmental is) so, whether or not what they support is right or wrong there's always hypocrites to their own beliefs and others who follow them.

[Darkslash]

Is Pakistan overly religious? And if it is, like you think America is (hah!), is that a bad thing?

[lion_roog]

Well, America is one of the more religious countries when it comes to Christianity...but it seems that there are countries out there where religion has a lot more influence in the government. I could name a few, but that would be speculation on my part.

And I've never seen Moore's Fahrenheit 911...from what I've heard it is biased and molds the facts and such to paint an inaccurate picture. But he has the right to make such a film...and people have the right to criticize and point out the fallacies of his film.

[Nephilim]

It doesn't matter if there's religion or not; people will always find some excuse to do all manner of things.

But as a member of the so called "Godless Europe," I think I see where you're coming from Shadow. From what you hear of America, in comparison to where we live, it does seem like a very, very religious place.

[Azerane]

Neph's right, people always find a reason to argue or fight or whatever it is they want to do.

To be honest, I don't really understand everything you've written there, as in, what exactly you're trying to say along with those examples you've given. But I really don't think America is over-religious. I've never seen it like that at all.

Is anyone really over-religious? Some people just put more of themselves into their religion than others, they just might have a stronger belief than others, that doesn't make them over-religious. I think people can be crazy, but not over-religious, hehe.

[Shadow]

i think we akshely are kind of godless...seeing that they dont teatch out relegion in school " nore the evelution thingy" they just leave it be and let you deside if that belong to the category godless i guesse we are hehe ^^


but seriesly sweden is not so mutch for gods really...all swedish guys i know is like godless for exsept 1 or 2 so....

and thanks to Nephilim in fact that was the most usefull comment iv got so far ^^ and hes tottaly right abut europe probebly being mostly godless thus seeing why i get so supprised when i see this harish debates but from what i saw on that docomentary they used there relegion as weapon agesnt there own...and i cant see how when your supporting one person....

it was like Bush stands for Christianety vote agesnt him and your agesnt your own relegion.
that is what i really cant understand that they merge politicts in to there relegion....

but what iv heard so far in this thread" and very usefull thank you all" that its not really abut relegion...they just add it to push the other person down and away...becuse i seresly never thought id hear...

"you sinner you bring flith here" and etc etc outside a movie or something 0.o but they also said all the " none relegions things like threats and commpared these guys to Hitler"

so my next question is becuse am lerning alot here ^^

is Relegion often merged in to argues as a meaning to "attack " our "defend " yourself?...becuse by the sound of this they "use" realgion in a topic where it has nothing to do with it (as Nephlin said befure folks use whatever they can relegion or not)

but is relegion "used" this way?...becuse aint that like "useing " someone ? and aint ya a sinner if you "use" it? ...really hope you get my meaning here


and Neph is tottaly right abut from our point of view heck i look at amarica as the land of the god and after seeing this debate i wanted to know how the status really is becuse we all know how mutch the news and everything only takes in the bad and goodie stuff....becuse i mean compared to sweden ...i mean wow..if youd place the same relegios and hard core (scary 0.o) belivers here Sweden would implode

honestly i guess am kind of fashinated abut this subject

[Azerane]

To be honest, I think it's sometimes the hardcore or scary (as you put it :P) believes that sometimes turn people away from religious beliefs and ignore it all together. That's just my opinion though. Am I going off topic with this? heh

[Monai]

Uhm, doesn't Utah have a majority of Mormons, and isn't it one of the most Republican-voting states also? It's just one state in America, yes a lot of Americans are more religious than other nationalities but it's only one state we're looking at here.

[Shadow]

i know Monai thats why am posting this and asking is it not ? :3

so keep the answers/opinions/fakts comming

and Monai am not drawing the whole Amarica over one straw after looking at Utah if you think that

[Stormfury]

Are you trying to say Christianity in America rules the roost? ....



First Utah, Utah isn't even really a state; it's just there...

Second, is Bush allied with 9/11?... No... he can't even formulate a speech let-alone such a scheme...

Third... and I guess... is America over religious? ... Not any more than any other country...

[Dyani]

Religion is not a bad thing in the main. The extremists make the whole religion look bad. Just like one man can make a nation look bad.

I agree with Neph. America does seem to take its religion more... strongly than Europe where we encourage multiculteralism, rather than one. But like I said.. one apple can make the whole barrel look rotted.

Elliot - *Second, is Bush allied with 9/11?... No... he can't even formulate a speech let-alone such a scheme...*
Ah, nice to hear such truth. The guy sometimes has trouble saying anything longer than four syllables.

[Monai]

Originally posted by shadow
i know Monai thats why am posting this and asking is it not ? :3

so keep the answers/opinions/fakts comming

and Monai am not drawing the whole Amarica over one straw after looking at Utah if you think that

Ah, okay then. ^^ On topic, the US is a lot more religious than some countries, compared to others it isn't. Iran runs its government system and laws from the Qur'an, so it's less religious comparatively, whereas compared to some of the more liberal European nations it's kind of overly religious. So it all depends what perspective you look from, I guess.

[Ghamu]

Yeah, we've already concluded this, but I'd taken the time to type it out before noticing, so I'll go ahead and post it anyway. This is directly quoted from Noam Chomsky's "Imperial Ambitions," which is a series of interviews done by/with David Barsamian (I dunno, that might tell someone something) that center around soem of the problems in the post 9/11 world:

[D.B.]: Lately we frequently hear that Enlightenmentare under attack, particularly in education, where abstinence is being taught rather than other forms of protective sex, creationism is being advocated, textbooks are being censored. Are you worried about this trend?

[N.C.]: "This is a very worrisome feature of U.S. culture. No other industrial country has anything like the degree of extremist religious beliefs and irrational commitments that you commonly find in the United States. The idea that you have to avoid teaching evolution or pretend you're not teaching it is unique in the industrial world. And the statistics are mindboggling. Roughly half the population think the world was created a couple of thousand years ago. A huge percentage, maybe a quarter or so, say they've had a born-again experience. A substantial number of people believe in what's called "the rapture." Large majorities are convinced of miracles, the existence of the devil, and so on.

These strains go pretty far back in American history but in recent years they have come to affect social and political life to an unprecedented extent. For example, before Jimmy Carter, no U.S. president had to pretend to a religious fanatic, but since then every one of them has. This has contributed to a genuine undermining of democracy since the 1970s. Carter, probably inadvertently, taught the lesson that you can mobilize a large constituency by presenting yourself, honestly or not, as a Bible-fearing, evangelical Christian. Up until that point, religious beliefs were people's personal concerns. There has been a conscious takeover of the electoral system by the public relations industry, which now sells candidates the way they sell commodities. And the image of a God-fearing, believing person of deep faith who is going to protect us from the threats of the modern world is one you can sell."

If things are going the way Chomsky says, you could say that the U.S. is "too religious", yes. But if I remember correctly, there are only two countries in the world that is ruled by a priesthood, Norway and Iran, and while Norway is a mildly annoying country (for Swedes anyway), I wouldn't say that religion is necessarily all that bad. *shrug*

[Darkslash]

Not like Noam Chomsky has a political agenda or anything...

I wonder if you "godless Europeans" realize the extent to which extremist Islam is taking the reins of your lands -- denying free speech (Mohammed cartoon), imposing mob rule for weeks (France), imams demanding religious law trump common law (England)... Over-religious? America isn't anything compared to what extremist Islam has imposed in the Middle East, and what they wish to impose in Europe.

But hey, it's your elephant, your room, and at the end of the day America will still have a more religious populace, and more free practice of the same.

(as for Utah -- I've lived there, and I can tell you it's one of the best-run states in the USA, with some of the best people you can find)

EDIT: Just for some spice, a bit of lyric from Martina McBride's new single, "Anyway," which she performed tonight at the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo (which I was at, and which is the world's largest):

God is great, but sometimes life ain't good
When I pray it doesn't always turn out like I think it should
But I do it anyway
I do it anyway

This world's gone crazy and it's hard to believe
That tomorrow will be better than today
Believe it anyway
You can love someone with all your heart
For all the right reasons
And in a moment they can choose to walk away
Love 'em anyway

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Darkslash

(as for Utah -- I've lived there, and I can tell you it's one of the best-run states in the USA, with some of the best people you can find)

I agree with that...Utah has some of the nicest people I've met anywhere. My friend has lived there and has quite a bit of family there...he said the only real problem Salt Lake City has is with it's teenagers...mainly the Mormon teenagers who want to rebel against the Mormon religion and stuff...

[Shadow]

first of i just whana say thanks to all who is very seriues abut this and take time with gather info and quates and stuff and hey we even got some from Utha speaking for em thats also good ^^


but darkslash i dont really understand what you mean this thread is not throwing dirt on Amarica or compare how " badly " the religion is to islam or the otherway around...again this is not throwing dirt at one religus contry our none realigus this is simply me trying to widen my knowlage abut the world and right now religion.

and really thanks to Ghamu i suck up alot from that and that you used the term "too religious" fitts quite better then my original word....


heres an other question for ya.

here in sweden i can bascekly go around with a tag saying "god dont excist" (not that i would its just plain stupded >.>) with out anyone caring it would be more "ya waste your time putting that on?" but iv heard lots of stories abut folks and student not being relgios of any kind get "pushed out" by the comonaty (god i cant spell that >.<)"

for istance if i go in to a collage who teatches out Christianety and i dont belive in god would i be in trubble? i mean would i have to be worried abut teatchers lowering my grades and getting bolied and in general being in trubble? (well as for an excance student i think theyd over looked it but lets say am Amarican)



oh and btw thanks! that you keep this thread clean and not turning it in to a relgous topic war zone! i really apprichate that becuse i can learn alot more then

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Darkslash
I wonder if you "godless Europeans" realize the extent to which extremist Islam is taking the reins of your lands -- denying free speech (Mohammed cartoon), imposing mob rule for weeks (France), imams demanding religious law trump common law (England)... Over-religious? America isn't anything compared to what extremist Islam has imposed in the Middle East, and what they wish to impose in Europe.

Heh, not... really. Some extremist Muslim will say/do something (Muhammed cartoon, saying all gays should be hung, women who dress provotically deserve to be raped, etc) people will get pissy about it for a few days, and then nothing more will really be said other than a passing joke. The general consenses is, if you want Sharia law, then go to an Islamic contry.

And they're called imans, but the way. And no one was saying that you're over-religious compared to Islamic countries, just to us.

[Ghamu]

Originally posted by Darkslash
Not like Noam Chomsky has a political agenda or anything...

Yeah, like defending Enlightenment ideals, among others. But you don't see a problem with any of the things he talks about in that interview?

I wonder if you "godless Europeans" realize the extent to which extremist Islam is taking the reins of your lands -- denying free speech (Mohammed cartoon), imposing mob rule for weeks (France), imams demanding religious law trump common law (England)... Over-religious? America isn't anything compared to what extremist Islam has imposed in the Middle East, and what they wish to impose in Europe.

What Neph said, basically. And while it's true that England, France and Germany are the three countries that have most political/economic pull around here, Europe is made up of 40+ countries (not states), so lumping all of us together and calling us "Europeans" the same way you call people in the U.S. "Americans" doesn't really work, even though we've been working on this whole "United States of Europa" thing for a while now.

Originally posted by shadow
here in sweden i can bascekly go around with a tag saying "god dont excist" (not that i would its just plain stupded >.>) with out anyone caring it would be more "ya waste your time putting that on?" but iv heard lots of stories abut folks and student not being relgios of any kind get "pushed out" by the comonaty (god i cant spell that >.<)"

for istance if i go in to a collage who teatches out Christianety and i dont belive in god would i be in trubble? i mean would i have to be worried abut teatchers lowering my grades and getting bolied and in general being in trubble? (well as for an excance student i think theyd over looked it but lets say am Amarican)

It depends. Mostly, I'd say the answer is "No", but from what I gather, atheism is looked upon with more suspicion than homosexuality in the U.S. Some links included below for starters.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258619.htm
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258782.htm
Fighting Anti-Atheist Bigotry, Discrimination
Atheist Activism

[Dyani]

As far as I see it, in one sense yes America is overly religious, but only in a few states/groups examples, Scientology for example.

I reckon its only a phase they're going through. To quote a great man *"The Americans will always do the right thing? after they've exhausted all the alternatives." * Eventually, they'll do the right thing. As will the rest of humanity.

Hopefully...