Good discussions, everybody; I'll work on a massive answering post for later
And TX-101, I see nobody arguing, and what's wrong with our reasons? Seems like a good, reasoned, balanced arguement to me...
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Good discussions, everybody; I'll work on a massive answering post for later
And TX-101, I see nobody arguing, and what's wrong with our reasons? Seems like a good, reasoned, balanced arguement to me...
Zira is Kovu's mother, of course. And both Tani and Nuka call Zira 'mother'. Quite obviously they are siblings, even if not out of the same father.
Anyway, I think 'Tani sort of cherished Kovu only as the future warrior\king for quite a while. She didn't hate him, but she didn't seem to really love him either--she just had a very power-influenced respect, thinking of him as the cub who'd someday overthrow Simba, and then they'd have beautiful, green Pridelands, plenty to eat and drink.
BTW...Nuka complains about Kovu in one scene, saying, "...Scar wasn't even his father", suggesting that Scar was his (Nuka's) father, and the idea of Kovu avenging Scar, without even having Scar's paternity, was proposterous...?
Err, this aint fighting. It seems more like half our posts are agreeing with each other if anything. The rest is a friendly exchange of ideas, presenting points of view the others may not have thought of.Originally posted by TX-101
COM'ON... STOP FIGHTING FOR SILLY REASONS. its OK the way it is.
let me tell ya something "Bolj kot me?a? drek, bolj smrdi" It's slovenian proverb. translate it if you want. but it's true.
STOP
If you think this is a fight, you've obviously never seen one.
It's discussions like this that message boards were built for.
TX: splitting hairs and having serious yet otherwise meaningless discussions has always been at the very heart of serious fandom and it is what we all live for. I mean, if fans don't discuss who is related to whom, or what so-and-so's motivations are, then NO ONE else will!!!
There is too much of Scar in Kovu, besides, he was originally (as has been pointed out previously, umpitty-ump times, ad nauseum) that Kovu was to be Scar's son. So, I am going with the original intent. Just cuz Nuka says "Scar wasn?t even his father" and the cut scene where Kovu says, "but he wasn't my father" (and Zira saying something like, "yeah, but...blah, blah, blah...") doesn?t mean squat. Disney just got cold feet when they figured out that the cousin-to-cousin thing would turn off the squeamish, so they did a rather clumsy rewrite. The artist's design sheets show his evolution as a softend-down version of Scar. And in certain scenes, specifically, Simba?s nightmare, his appearance in the smoke (echoing Scar's arrival right after Mufasa?s death) and the scene where they are all going back to pride rock after the "rescue", when he definitely looks like Scar.
But back to Vitani. It is likely that Kovu?s training would keep the siblings apart from each other and dependant on their mother for emotional support. Divide and conquer. Vitani?s willingness to slug him during the ambush scene when he tried to intervene may be a result of this. Her relationship with Nuka seems to been very deep ? deeper than any relationship she had with Kovu. Yeah, ok, she probably thought that he was a hapless pinhead, and he probably thought that she was a bossy brat, but there were several semi-developed scenes that had more interaction between Nuka and his little sister. Vitani seems to have occupied a quasi-maternal role, keeping Nuka out of trouble, as in the fire-rescue scene where she had to drag him off camera and keep him focused. This may have always been her role with Kovu, and would have allowed her to remain a vital part of her mother?s plans, and by implications, her affections.
My theory on the birth of Kovu is this: During Scar?s reign, he and Zira gave birth to Nuka, a weak and pitiful cub, dependent on his parents for everything. Scar quickly dismissed him as a potential heir, and soon he and Zira had a second child, a daughter named Vitani. Scar named her heiress to his kingdom when he passed away.
Near the time of Vitani?s birth, a rogue lioness entered the Pridelands and gave birth. A party of scavenging hyenas came upon her and killed her, but the cub (Kovu) was spared the same fate by Sarabi?s hunting party, who routed the hyenas and took the cub to Pride Rock with them.
As the only lactating lioness, Zira was given the newborn to care for along with her Vitani. Scar, seeing the benefit of a male heir, betrothed the two cubs as future King and Queen. And so things progressed until Simba?s return and Scar?s demise.
When Scar died, Zira dismissed Vitani as future Queen (believing that brute force was the only way to revenge Scar), and instead raised the two cubs as siblings, with Kovu as the Chosen One. The two younger cubs were too small to know the difference, and Nuka was told to keep his mouth shut ? or else.
If Kovu was indeed Scar's son, I cannot make myself believe that Zira would deny that fact to anyone, even to lie. It's not just like her -- considering the depth of her obvious obession with Scar, if she had his biological son, I have no doubt that she would tell it to anyone who would listen.
I would agree with Vitani looking for attention, but I would not put her in the same category as the pandering Nuka (or other similar characters in other works - Gollum/Smeagol for instance) who jump around clumsily doing anything to attract notice.
I do think that the other Outsiders respected Vitani as a "hunt mistress" of sorts -- surely they had to go hunting at some point -- and someone would need to lead raids into the Pridelands while Zira trained; otherwise, how would Nala know her by name? However, I think that if any of the unnamed Outsiders had protested instead of Vitani, Zira would have responded the same way and the end result would have been the same.
As Simba Marasa pointed out, Simba does look different in SP, but I would argue that this is both the animation team (Australian instead of American) and Simba's diet were different -- it's a big change to fresh meat from grubs and carrion!
And Kovu should have taken way more than a day to overcome his mother's training; at least a week or so. "Upendi" was just an excuse for poor writing, if you ask me.
I wouldn't call the comradarie between Vitani and Nuka "affection", per se, but it does seem a stronger bond than the one she has with Kovu. And as far as Vitani knocking Kovu out of the fight -- that tells me that with her, the greater goal outweighs individuals -- if Kovu is not going to follow his path as Chosen One, then he is worth nothing better than a good kick.
Hmmmm....
I think Vitani doesn't really see Kovu as a brother (or lover) at all, but rather as a goal or idealogy placed upon a pedastool. Zira pretty much brainwashed them all into thinking that Kovu was the destined future king, and as such, she treated him a lot differently than the other cubs. I've always felt that Vitani felt somewhat dettached from her brother because of the way their mother idolized him all the time. It may have been hard for her to develop a 'family bond' with him, because of this.
I don't know if that made any sense...
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