Something you wish had been in the movies

[chaotic serenit]

the cub in the dad wake up scene is nala, i think.

Hmm. Nala, I'm aware of, but I've heard there's another cub (older) that can be viewed in that scene? I might be mistaken. My resolution's always been too dark for me to study that scene and find out for myself.

I comment on this issue because it really baffles me. By all means, the pride should have been flourishing under Mufasa's reign - lots of cubs about. During Scar's rule, there should have been very few. Lionesses don't have set estrous cycles, as they can't predict the weather patterns. In a time when there's so little, I can't see why anybody would want to bring more hungry mouths to the table. Once Simba got the Pridelands up and running once more, there should have been at least a few cubs about. Large litters aren't common in lions, and one cub isn't necessarily strange, but at least 2-4 are generally birthed. (Mind you, lionesses have fairly long periods in between cubs. About 2 years until their initial batch is full grown, but still.)

So, you see, it confuses me a bit, because there females were getting pregnant in a time when they really *shouldn't* have, while in the times when they would have been very fertile...blegh. I'll just blame it on Disney's desire not wanting to mess with the kids red, white, and blue family values.

[The Tigress]

I wish they would have entirely scapped SP because that movie makes absolutely no sense and is hardly consitant with the first TLK.

What they really should have done was make the 2nd TLK into a prequel about Mufasa and Scar as cubs. Not only a prequel, but a very well done "movie theater" movie and not some lame direct to video movie. I found it a disgrace that they would make a sequel to the best animated Disney film of all time into a shoddy plothole filled direct to video affair.

SP is basically a lower end TLK 1 done all over again but with crappier animation/crappier songs and a female cub instead of a male. Which btw, the cub Simba and Nala had at the end of the first TLK was indeed a male. It said so in all of my TLK merchandise/books/cards, etc I had when I was a kid. Shoot, I don't even consider SP cannon at all. I just disregard it entirely.

As you can see, I have a very low opinion of Simba's Pride. And I won't touch TLK 1.5 with a 50 foot pole although I thought it was more entertaining and well done than Simba's Pride. But what irked me was that it was all about Timon and Pumbaa.

I was really hoping for that prequel...

[chaotic serenit]

In defense of Disney...

Films like TLK are high-end movie deals. Lots of time and money put into them. With the general public's view of sequels, Disney isn't going to risk throwing so much financial stake at a on-screen film debut. It's a lose-lose situation. Audiences tend to ignore sequels because they automatically compare it to the original and find it lesser, regardless of the actual content of the film. (Check the box office. Very few sequels do as well as the originals.) As a result, companies aren't willing to risk putting so much money into sequels, thus they put less effort into it, allowing sales to ride on the coattails of the original's fame. After all, why gamble so much on a sequel when you could use that time and money to work on fresh material? And thus goes the great circle of capitalism.

You have to keep in mind, as well, that TLK wasn't expected to be the massive hit that it turned out to be. When Disney first began work on it, the movie was actually second tier to the primary animation team, which was working on Pocahontas. You can imagine their surprise when it exploded in movie theatres, becoming the highest grossing animated film at the box office. They expected it to make money, don't get me wrong, but it's obvious they hadn't expected it to eclipse all of their previous work like it did. But lightening doesn't strike twice - even if TLK was a massive hit, there's no assurance that they'd get a full return on an equally ambitious secondary film.

There's also another issue at hand in giving a backstory to Mufasa and Scar - the possibility of varying interest. When you make a sequel, part of the pull is that you've already established a connection to a fanbase regarding certain characters. Although Mufasa and Scar are certainly impressionable, the main bulk of the audience is probably more familiar and interested in the protagonist, Simba, and his spotlight stealing companions, Timon and Pumbaa. I can see where Disney would be hesitant to start a major project on these two characters, especially with as limited as their screen-time is (as compared to Simba and company).

Additionally, what if they "botched" the story with Mufasa and Scar? If SP was handled so shoddily (which I actually don't think it was too bad, just had too big shoes to fill), then why would you want to risk ruining a background that is strife with mystery and suspense? I'd rather leave the background to the fanfic writers. As much as *want* to see what happened, I'm sure the same thing would happen in the TLK fandom as it did in the SW fandom when Lucas made the prequels - nobody would be happy with it, even if it was what they asked for, because everybody already had a decade to prescribe themselves to certain ideas about how the characters should be.

[va-kasi]

Gotta agree with chaotic serenit here.

I don't think SP is a bad movie at all, but people keep comparing it to TLK. It's pretty obvious a low-budget sequel is not going to be able to stand on the same level as TLK. But as a stand-alone film it is good.

Have you watched the documentary "proud of Simba's Pride?" the director has some -very- good ideas, and a big story. Perhaps the audience just didn't catch them so well.

Anyway, I don't believe that it could be passed as truth that it?s a bad film in any way. Particularly when there are people who enjoy it equally or better than the original; (like myself, but not being the only one) even though its on a much lower budget.

[chaotic serenit]

I don't think SP is a bad movie at all, but people keep comparing it to TLK. It's pretty obvious a low-budget sequel is not going to be able to stand on the same level as TLK. But as a stand-alone film it is good.

Well, it is possible to simply not like the film (I personally slightly prefer TLK 1.5 over SP), but I get tired of all the complaining about how Disney should have done better when, chances were, nothing they could have done would have pleased everyone.

Have you watched the documentary "proud of Simba's Pride?" the director has some -very- good ideas, and a big story. Perhaps the audience just didn't catch them so well.

It's not so much that, though it is important to note that *somebody* put time into it. But I dislike it when SP's qualities are overliked. If nothing else, it was one of the few Disney films that gave us *likeable,* empathetic villains. Scar was interesting because he was a very welll done villain, but he was an evil guy all the same. Zira's goals are morally wrong, but emotionally, we can understand where so much of her anger and drive comes from. Nuka's a fantastic character - pathetic, weak-minded, unlikeable, but yet ultimately sympathetic. And the villains aren't the only flawed characters - Simba is haunted by his past and allows it to influence his judgement; Kiara is very open-minded and loving, but she's also very sheltered, naive, and can be selfish; Kovu struggles to overcome his mother's militant indoctrination, as well as accepting the burden of responsibility to others than just himself.

I also dislike the argument that Simba's behavior is retrodevelopmental. How so? Because he's still flawed? Because he rightly suspects the Outlanders of treachery and violence? Zira never gave him any indication that he could expect otherwise. Because he's distrustful of Kovu and instantly dislikes him? A rival male who had been raised by a woman deadset to dethrone the current heir, who magically saved my daughter out of the blue from a mysterious fire would leave me pretty rattled, too. Because he allows his past experiences to overwhelm his conscientious judgement and exile Kovu? Hello? He was right. It doesn't matter if Kovu's goals ultimately changed, the fact remains that Simba had good reason to beware of him from the beginning. It's a shame that he was so quick to overturn his newfound respect for the boy, but what else was he supposed to work on? Simba is not clairvoyant. He got mauled by the entire Outlander pride, and Zira fingered Kovu as part of the conspiracy for regicide, which he had been until he fell for Kiara. Simba loves his daughter, but he has a responsibility to take care of his pride and lands, and unfortunately, with the information he had available (Kiara's arguments don't stand - she's too biased), he made the choice he felt needed to be made. Unfortunately, it was a *wrong* choice, but it was logical for the time in which it was made. It's the mark of a good leader that Simba was later willing to retract his decision and recognize his mistakes.

If anything, SP is a continuation of Simba's development. He's grown into the confidant, loving lion we know and taken his place as King, but this does not mean that he is completely without flaws. *Nothing* is going to erase the agony of his youth. I would find it less realistic if it wasn't affecting his judgement. SP just brings everything full circle, where Simba finally does manage to shake off the last of Scar's influence.

Anyway, I don't believe that it could be passed as truth that it?s a bad film in any way. Particularly when there are people who enjoy it equally or better than the original; (like myself, but not being the only one) even though its on a much lower budget.

Well, everything we say is opinion. Even the positive reflections. The issue is not generalizing that everybody feels the same way. I don't mind if people dislike SP. I just dislike the suggestion that all fandom would be better without it.

[nathalie]

Also knowing, that those who draw the classics, aren't the ones who draw the sequels.

Another company within Disney does that, or something like that.

So that also explains why some characters look different, because the head animators from the first movie didn't draw on the sequel(s).

[chaotic serenit]

Very true. The primary animation crew is scheduled to work on new projects. I doubt straight-to-home video projects even make it to second crew.

And, really, the animation in SP is nowhere near as awful as its hyped up to be. It's not as consistent in its quality as TLK is, I agree, which is where most Disney sequels have their animation flaws. But on the flip side, there are things that I actually think were improved since TLK: The animators of SP spent more time adding little details to the lions than the TLK animators did. The lionesses weren't all just Sarabi clones, especially the Outlanders.

And while it wasn't always successful, the animators obviously chose to experiment heavily with coloring in this film. There's alot of scenes that really stand out because of the color choices or background setups, which owes alot of credit to the creativity of the background crew. A savannah generally doesn't offer much variety, but SP was never short on new designs, even giving new life to familiar ones, like Pride Rock and the Elephant Graveyard.

The big difference between TLK and SP animation is really the style. SP's is much smoother and fluid - sometimes too much - than TLK, which initially throws a viewer if they're used to the original.

[This Land]

I would of like to see sarabi in TLK so it dont look like she mysterly disappeared. I know moria kelly died, but they could of found a replacement or just at least put saribi in a scene but she dont speak.

[chaotic serenit]

I think you mean Madge Sinclair. Moira Kelly (Nala) is still quite healthy and young.

I don't think we really need to see Sarabi as much as it would've been nice to have a name-check. Maybe Simba mentioning in passing that she'd died (which is what I think is the unspoken insinuation of her whereabouts in the movie). It's not as though she's unimportant, after all; we're talking about the former queen. That was part of where TLK2 managed to alienate some of its crowd - it promised TLK-original characters, but wound up shoving them aside in lieu of the fresh cast. Which, as a stand-alone movie, isn't bad at all. But with TLK, the original characters have a strong impression that carries with the film, so a nod in the direction might have helped things along better.

[MafunDi]

As most of my prewriters already said, adding something to the movie would most probably destroy the plot and the sentimental feelings along with the movie. But, given the fact, it wouldn't, probably I want to have more Sarafina in it, I think she is cute and a interesting character. Moreover it would be great to have more sentimental scenes. Everything with emotions. Let it be more father-son relations, more love, more hate. But, as this movie already is one of the emotional movies to me, probably this would going to be emotional overloaded o.O
In fact it would make the movie at least less suitable for children. But even anatomically correct drawings would do that, and hey, it would be at least interesting, don't you think? Or, let's say, more natural.

[Prince_Kivoru]

I have one question. I've herad about this for a while and I still have no idea what it is...what's all this talk about Sarabi's lulaby? I've heard about Zira's Lulaby, but what happened to Sarabi's?

[chaotic serenit]

Sarabi's lullaby was a cut scene where Simba, still a bit frightened following the hyena confrontation, finds comfort from his mother, who sings him a lullaby about some...lion...something like that. The point being that is was mother/son bonding.

I think somebody posted pictures from the concept art on the first page of this thread.

[DarkPaw]

Originally posted by MafunDi
But even anatomically correct drawings would do that, and hey, it would be at least interesting, don't you think? Or, let's say, more natural.

I would have thought that interesting. I mean, they make kids' programs with live animals. See, though, we dismiss it simply because their animals. If someone put it in an animated movie, there'd be sayings that it was 'dirty' or people would get uncomfortable. Odd how that works, no?

But hey, I gotta bring up Dreamworks here. Look at Spirit from Spirit: Stallion of The Cimmaron (how d'ya spell that!?) and Spike from Sinbad: Legend of The Seven Seas. In case anyone is unfamiliar, Spirit is the main character, and Spike is the tanish-goldish dog that belongs to Sinbad.

Now, especially apparent when Spike (I love that dog) is eating off the table (you'll know it when you see it) at the party in Syracuse, that he's well, a male! Spirit, too. It's not to in-your-face, but you get it. See? As far as I know, nothing's been said. But I'm not hardcore with those movies like with Lion King (no, just a strong fan), so I'll do a web run real quick.

Anywho, even on the Spirit website, where you can color your own horse and let it run, you can tell males from females. I just wish that if Dreamworks was gonna' do that, the females could have, like, teats or whatever. I mean, if you're gonna do it, do it equally!

Okay, off to do that web-run. Oh yeah, I've been gone forever because of a move and a short lack of phone/internet access, but I'm back now BRB hopefully with the net run's response!

[chaotic serenit]

To be fair, TLK was drowning in enough drama as it was because of the content - why would Disney want to stir up more controversy by putting something in that would get the more conservative members riled? I'm not even particularly sensitive to the issue, and I'm not really interested in anatomically correct characters in a cartoon It's not like genitalia are particularly attractive body parts, and as lions are the only species of big cats that exhibit sexual dimorphism, it really isn't needed.

Mind you, as you get older and more mature, you start to realize that these sterilized animals do look more than a little strange, but as it's not really anything particularly distracting - which "nudity" would have been. I think the public would have to grow more comfortable with realistic nudity (as in live action movies) before we moved into something like animation, where reality is purposefully distorted to be more aesthetically and emotionally appealing.

[DarkPaw]

Originally posted by chaotic serenit
It's not like genitalia are particularly attractive body parts, and as lions are the only species of big cats that exhibit sexual dimorphism, it really isn't needed.

That's very true, about the sexual dimorphism. That got me thinking, people would be very confused wuth Shenzi, if you understand sexual dimorphism in female spotted heyenas...

Well, what I would have liked wiould have been the very subtle suggestion that Dreamworks gave to Spirit and Spike.
But this is Disney, not Dreamworks, it's just something that would have been cool, but you have intensely valid points there.

[chaotic serenit]

That's very true, about the sexual dimorphism. That got me thinking, people would be very confused wuth Shenzi, if you understand sexual dimorphism in female spotted heyenas...

Hee. I was thinking about that myself. Though poor Shenzi's bound to get her gender puzzled over regardless. When I was kid, I actually though Shenzi was male when I first saw that movie. That low voice had me befuddled for the longest time. (Interestingly enough, Shenzi is a perfect feminist tool for that reason. Her gender isn't used to define her character in any such way, nor does she conform to any feminine stereotypes. Go Disney writers!)


Well, what I would have liked wiould have been the very subtle suggestion that Dreamworks gave to Spirit and Spike.
But this is Disney, not Dreamworks, it's just something that would have been cool, but you have intensely valid points there.

I can see perfectly well what you're saying, and it might be interesting to watch if it develops in the next few decades or so. Even if Disney did want to draw model-accurate characters, they'd have to battle another social stigma as well - the one that the public as a whole has attached to Disney as a source of children's entertainment. Dreamworks can be a little more exploratory because it's attached to a fairly expansive movie base. Disney has always been coined as the end-all provider of a young children's movies. As nice as the suggestion that children should be comfortable with gender is, I'm doubtful we'll see it come into play anytime soon.

I should also add that if Disney were to take the plunge, I think it would be best if they did it in a movie where the animals were as anatomically correct as possible, if only to lend a more natural feel to such an addition. Really, as far as TLK goes, the last concern we should have regarding physical accuracies is whether or not Simba can father cubs. I mean, I still can't figure out why they all have eyebrows.

[MafunDi]

I still like the "old" Version of CYFTLT o.o
Somewhere you can download a song with it, I remember.

[Kiara Serengeti]

I wish they'd kept the Zira's suicide scene...I've got a morbid mind...

[chaotic serenit]

Zira's suicide? *interest piques*

IMO, she did commit suicide by refusing Kiara's help, though I'm assuming this was more dramatic once...?

[Ralli]

Originally posted by MafunDi
I still like the "old" Version of CYFTLT o.o
Somewhere you can download a song with it, I remember.

Oh yes! Man, I didn't even think about that. Oh, you might want to point out 'which one'...there was another version (there were about, what, fifteen different versions, but only two were storyboarded, right?) that was storyboarded, with Timon and Pumbaa singing it. I love the Simba and Nala one, though.


...but...I really do...get a kick out of the Timon and Pumbaa version. xD; Especially the very beginning that they didn't have in the English version of the DVD. I'd die if they had kept that version, though. It'd just be funny to see...especially Pumbaa's expressions when Timon was being hypothetical but he didn't realize that.