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Thread: America: Not religous enough

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Dyani
    I don't care if America is overly religious, or not religious enough. I care about when people are not open to other peoples views or just dislike a country for no reason.

    Fortunatly, there are many reasons either side to dislike America or Europe. All based on either a person, a country/state or a group of people. Generalisation should stop here. Not ALL America is bad, just like not ALL Europe is bad. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm fed up of hearing about how one country is good and other is bad. Sounds like children calling each other names.
    Exactly, I don't exactly think highly of the US, because of the times I've had abuse thrown at me by fat Texans whilst I was there. However I do realise that there are nice people over there and that is why I don't hate the US, because I know that not everyone is like that.

    However as Kiva pointed out, most Americans dislike Europe and the UK in particular, I have no idea why, but they do. Maybe one of you could explain to me why?

    But yes, xenophobia is childish and pointless. My opinion is summed up in Dyani's first paragraph, respect for other people/countries is what the world needs.

  2. #22
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    congratilations Simba_2004 you have suscecfully read my thread tittle not read the content presumed i ditched amarica.

    am just gona ask why ya whana twist my thread around like that ...no one and more less me ditched amarica abut god and all...your post dont really have a ground to be built on ...to me you sound like a priest who got offended by my thread and tries to make us all relgions " no offence"

    myself dont belive in god... i have my reasuns but i nether hate him becuse its hard to hate something ya dont think excist our blame...

    but here is what i think abut god if hed excist and will pop up when i die.

    again this is opion and not saying he is anything but what i think.

    god aint good god aint fair and god sure as hell aint the sloution.

    god has not interfeard with anything "oh mirceles" well acording to me its all luck

    and i dont belive god is testing you ether...tell me why would god taste a 1 year old kid lossing his mother and only has a 5 year old brother who has to take care of him.....why do god make a famely suffer so badly by letting them get hit by a truck our die of a desece?....

    saying its a test is not an answer" acording to me"

    so in MY eyes god dose not excist has never excited will never excist and if it proves me worng il tell him right to his face what i think abut em.....

    hope you got your perpuse with this thread by twisting mine now am gona get back to my thread with alot of my friends who help me to understand relegion better

  3. #23
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    I agree with you Shadow. If God is so omnipotent and benevolent, why the Hell didn't he stop the tsunami in Indonesia and Sri Lanka? What about those people starving in Africa? What about the genocides? What about AIDS?

    This is not a Drill people. If you say its a test by God, then claim that he loves us and would want to save us all... I'd say BS. If the big guy loved us, why the Hell did he create so much sadness in the world?

    If EVil is a human thing, that must mean Satan is a human creation and thus God. I think you have a lot of courage believing in something so hopefully. Faith is not easy to aquire and you are a strong, admired person for being able to have faith. I'd rather trust Science. Religion and Science are walking to the same destination, just from different paths.

  4. #24
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    I didn't point out that Americans dislike Europe. I haven't met anyone before that has said they don't like Europeans...in fact I hear moe often how people who don't like the U.S try to compare us to Europe in terms of "Europe does it this way, so we should too!". If you ever hear an American criticize a European country, it is usually France. One because of how they think of/treat us, and also because it has become one of those things you joke about. Regardless, and though it is sad to say...a lot more Europeans dislike America than vice versa.

    Anyways, I am tired of that too. No country is perfect, but I feel we get a lot of hate towards us simply because of our position in the world, our wealth, and our military power. All those things are things that we earned through hard work..and there is no reason they should be looked down on like they were given to us.

    ~Kiva

  5. #25
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    and how ya know that Kiva? ya asked every europian and every amrican there is ? i dont belive that until i see a real rechared abut it...

    and dont feel sorry for yourself christ your president is practikly the ruler of the world

    as they say " The bigger they the bigger they fall"

    buuuuuuuuuuuut how did we get in to this disccusion anyway? 0.o thought this was abut god and relegion with amarica...you tend to judge other countries Kiva...no one iv known have judge amarica so far but the obvieas stuff...


    i think you feel instulted by eurpians for some reasun Kiva...becuse no post on this page nore the 2de has anything to do with Amarica vs Europe who suck the most...so ya didnt really have a reasun to post that right here...it just came out of the blue 0.o....i mean yeah ya could have nagged on our none realigus or realigus theam but you didnt do that eather...

  6. #26
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    Oh wow, this is slowly turning into a Americakkkan vs. Eurofags debate.

  7. #27
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    *LAUGHS* Shadow! You are arguing agianst your own methods! I can't count the number of times I have had to defend America on this board, let alone the amount of anti-Americanism I hear on T.V, etc. I didn't say that there aren't any Americans that dislike Europe, but that I have not met any...and that it is far more common to see anti-American views and outbursts than anti-European ones. Even Americans criticize our own country more than they do any others.

    Judge other countries? If you are referring to me criticizing them because of their stance AGAINST the U.S...then yes I do. I am tired of hearing how America is the evil of the world...how everything we do is so wrong...but at the same time we are expected to support everyone with our money, as if people are entitled to it. This thread is not about this, but if you want to turn it into something like this that is perfectly fine with me.

    Um...this thread was bound to turn into this because it is ABOUT AMERICA. It is not my fault it turned out this way when people begin to criticize us for being more religious than Europeans, and that it somehow hinders our law making ability, etc. You get back on topic and I will.

    ~Kiva

  8. #28
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    HA there we have it!

    you think where criticizeing US for being more realgius then eurpians what kind of stuped statment is that? no one has "Critizied" amarica where talking abut it and our own opinions and for your knowlage as you may know a supporter for amarica and its relegion started this thread..might whana check that out..

  9. #29
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    SPOILERS: Criticising is not always a negative thing! This thread wasn't made to bash Americans, because some of you are lovely, rather to discuss the stance on religion. Thus, it shouldn't have to turn to an Amerikkkan vs Eurofag debate.

  10. #30
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    Just a question there Only-Now... you talk of America as if it supports the world... look at the track record and it shows an appalling lack of support for other countries in need. As far as my history research goes, with the example of the Boxing Day Tsunami, the USA contributed a much lower percentage of its GDP (gross domestic product) than Australia, never mind the UK.
    America = 0.026%
    Australia = 0.255%
    UK = 0.0443%
    This means Australia contributed more of its total wealth than America... and look at the size and population difference, never mind distribution of people over the areas! America only looks to have more money than everywhere else beacuse of the size difference.
    Anyway, America is not going to be the big boss of things for long. China is developing fast and will soon overtake America in terms of economic growth and power. Can you say *China World Police*? But they're smart, they wouldn't bother.

    I'm not against Americans. I'm against certain groups of people and one person. America has many areas of outstanding natural beauty, which is a big bonus for me.

    Sorry for offtopic. I'll do PMs now with anyone who wants to talk more about this. Keep on topic.

  11. #31
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    I don't have anything against people living in other countries, everyone is invidual person after all. the thing I don't like about US is the policy towards other countries and the way the people in senat and whitehouse or goverment think that they can do whatever they want... like in example what happend with Afganistan. UN didn't allow that yet USA did what it saw the best for themself.

    the only things I hear people mentioning about US are:
    policy towards other countries: well that is true, USA is using their position as top country as they want.
    American's are over weight: Well it's part stereotype but it's true again that people in US have more over weight people than other country because of fast food cultrue.
    American's are stupid: Well I think that prefers on most of people knowledge about stuff outside of US. Like there was a test made on 1000 schools ( or something like that ) where they asked people to put countries on the map... they were able to put china and Russia on right place but in example Afganistan and Iraq were wrong with nearly 80%. Also over 60% of people thought that people in China speak English as first language. ( the test was made for teenagers in age of 14-18 )
    Over Religious: That has to have something to do with the fact that word "God" is used so often in speaches president makes, like " God loves America" or dollars say " In God we trust"

    As things about Europe, it's kind of hard to say anything about Europe the same way as USA because the Europe isn't a country, but a continet, I mean if you say something about Europe it would be same as someone says something about North America. But I guess I can try to pick some stereotypical things from Europe that I know about.

    Finnish are always drunk and they want to communicate as little as they can: well yeah it's true that people in Finland use the most alcohol in the world per person, but it doesn't apply on anyone (90% is actually used by 10% of population) ...and about being silent... well you get to judge that yourself as you want.
    French are Rude to people who speak English: well I guess some are... but that can't apply everyone.
    Swedish are blond and therefore they are retarded / stupid: well blond aren't any stupider than other people and what comest to all swedish being blond.. it's not true.
    Spanish are fat and lazy: I think the laziness comes from them having siesta... and the fat part.. I don't know where that comes from.

    so what I trying to prove with this... people are invidual... they base their opinion about other countries on stereotypes or what they hear about the country from other sources.

    ?(( I know this whole post was pretty much just off topic babling about Europe and America... I don't mean to start discussion about this, I mean to get you all back in the topic and stop blameing each other countries for something ))

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  12. #32
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    Criticism is generally bad actually..unless it is constructive, which none of this has been. I disagree with religion being a bad thing when it comes to it influencing the people in a nation. I know that Europe is not as openly religious like America...I don't really believe it is really a good thing. I think that the liberal attitudes many European countries hold, and their dislike of us leads to them using the fact that we are more religious as an "attack point". That doesn't mean just Europeans, but Americans who have the same mindset. People are attackng religion here because it is important and that is driven by people who do not like the U.S..some of which are in Europe.

    I hope that is clear now. I didn't insult or make fun of Europe and no one made fun of the U.S...but regardless of whether the criticism is meant to be bad or constructive...I can disagree with it, and I can interpret it based on how it was said. So, I don't know what more to say. I never said Europe sucked, and I never accused anyone of saying that about America. I wasn't even making this an America vs. Europe situation. I mentioned that I believe the mindset many Europeans hold on religion, coupled with what they think of America leads to attacks on religion being so apparent here. I don't think Europeans exclusively hold this point of view...some Americans do as well, but I was simply pointing out that people who attack us for being religious are driving the "trend" not to be, which is apparent in Europe (and also holds a large amount of people that feel that way I mentioned).

    ~Kiva

  13. #33
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    I think that the liberal attitudes many European countries hold, and their dislike of us leads to them using the fact that we are more religious as an "attack point". That doesn't mean just Europeans, but Americans who have the same mindset. People are attackng religion here because it is important and that is driven by people who do not like the U.S..some of which are in Europe.
    You really should try to find a new word to describe the people whose views you don't like, seeing as how the U.S. is the only place where liberal doesn't mean "open minded." This forum is pretty international, and you're not presenting yourself in a positive light when you claim that the effects of open mindedness is something to be concerned about.

    But anyway, where do you get the idea that Europe is somehow consciously undermining the religious traditions in your country? Sure, we wonder what's going on your side when we hear about stories like this one, but going from snickering at the insecurity of some belivers in the U.S. to attacking religion itself is a pretty big step.

    And how many U.S. presidents have been doing the "devout christian"-spiel for the last 3 decades? All of them?

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    You have already mentioned that, and it actually does mean open minded...it is actually derived from that meaning. What I mean is that liberal meaning "open-minded" influenced it being used to describe those people that want to change aspects of society. This matches when you have liberals supporting changes such as gay marriage, etc etc. Open mindedness is perfectly fine, but I dont support many of those changes that liberals support.

    I don't believe that this is major objective of European governments and that they are behind it. I believe that the people in power, and many people in those countries (the ones that put them in power) dislike the U.S for various reasons, and so they are against things that differentiate us from them. What I mean is that the majority of Europe is not as religious as the U.S..because they dislike us, this is some ammunition for them when wanting to criticize our policies or how our country runs etc. Obviously they cannot directly influence it in most case...but being the popular belief in Europe...it is natural that is spread to other like-minded individuals in the United States that CAN directly effect our society here. So, no, Europe is not to blame directly...but most of Europe holds a viwpoint that others in this country pick up on, and then use to "attack" us. Which in turn, is supported by those same people who dislike us in Europe. I don't think it is anything like a conspiracy if that is what you are getting at. I believe it is popular belief held by liberals in Europe (that make up the majority) that spread to lliberals here in the U.S. I'm not blaming, just pointing it out...and suggesting that since a large area of the world such as Europe holds a view such as this...it is no wonder that it can influence other people within the U.S.

    There have been PLENTY of Christian presidents...probably the majority...and I don't think that Bush is any different other than the fact that he mentions his faith in speeches...also perfectly fine.

    ~Kiva

  15. #35
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    Not religious enough? Are you serious? It's pretty religious as-is despite our 1st Amendment. We're not supposed to have a State Religion, yet it often feels like we do.

    Originally posted by Simba_2004
    It seems as though America is turning into nothing but greedy and fleshy people and the only religion that seems to exist anymore is the religion of "Its all about me."
    That's a pretty broad statement to make. Do you have specific examples? If anything, I think America has improved throughout its history. We banned slavery, ended segregation, gave women the right to vote, increased scientific progress, etc. When were these good old days exactly when you feel America was better and more moral?

    Additionally, religion does not automatically equate to morality, nor does lack of religion equate to immorality. Do you believe atheists are inherently immoral and selfish?

    I've heard quite a few people say that everyone is a Christian in the USA, but guess what? That statement is not true. Very few in the USA actually practice Christianity on a daily basis. Just because they say they are a Christian does not mean that they are actually indeed a Christian. I have met people that claim to be Christians but show absolutly no Christian qualities.
    The majority of US citizens are Christian, and do actively practice their religion. Christian fundamentalism has enough power in this country to keep gay marriage banned in most states. That indicates that they make up the majority of voting US citizens.

    Additionally, you are not the judge of who is or is not Christian.

    It is sad that America is backsliding soo horribly right now. The end times are coming a lot sooner than we can all expect.
    Backsliding into [i[what[/i] exactly? Can to put a name to this paranoid fear?

    Man has no power to save, only God does. For example, if the entire city of New York caught on fire and only one person had a water bottle to put it out, would he be succesful? Obviously a water bottle could not put out a fire that huge, but if God came in, He could bring all the water in the world onto the fire to easily put it out.
    Convenient that he never does such a thing though. Can you cite me the occurrence of such a miracle in the news? A fire just going out? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here...if there is a God, he certainly seems to have no interest in saving us from natural disasters, seeing as they happen all the time.

    If you have hate toward the Lord because of another person that you have met or a "opinion" that you have read, then I apologize for their actions.
    Those who feel America is too religious typically do not feel that way because of "hate toward the Lord." They usually feel that way simply because they have different beliefs. I, for example, am an atheist. I don't like that as an atheist, religion still has so much influence over my life and my country. I feel religion should be a personal thing, and that's not at all what I'm seeing in this country.

    Originally posted by Only-now
    We have been a Christian nation for a long time. Nothing is wrong with that, and it sickens me when people attack Christianity from every angle. When they attack us with this bull**** political correctness.
    No. This country was founded by Christians but it is not a Christian nation. It was founded under the idea that there would NOT be one State Religion.

    They argue we are so prejudice against other religions and only represent Christianity...hmm...I wonder....THE MAJORITY IF OUR POPULATION THAT PRACTICES A RELIGION ARE CHRISTIANS! Then, they contradict themselves by attacking ONLY Chrisitianity. They do not yell at any other religious groups who happen to do the same things....they single out Christianity.
    Who is "they?" Atheists? People who complain about the excessive presence of religion in our society as a public issue rather than a personal one? Well, as one of those people, I must say you've not done your background research. First of all, if I see other religions doing things that bother me, I do protest. However, in this country, there really is no radical movement amongst Jews, or Hindus, or Islamics, or any other religion to enforce religious teachings or practices in the government. It's Christians who are protesting gay marriage. Christians who are complaining about evolution being taught in science class. That religion is being singled out because they're the group that's so loudly pushing their religion upon other people.

    And I know not all Christians do this, but there's a large enough number who do that give people like me reason to be frustrated.

    To be honest, I can guess where this comes from. It comes from the left, the liberal side of the world...which at the moment makes up a large part of it...and the part that does not like the U.S (or is jealous of us..as childish as that sounds, it's true). These people want to attack a besis of our nation simply because it is a basis of our nation. They want to pick and poke the United States in any way they can..and obviously since religion is important to many people, and many Americans are Chrisitians....you get the attacks.
    This is absurd. You can have liberal Christians and conservative atheists. And you're speaking of liberal views like they're some petty evil thing. Jealous of what? Of who? You say "we." Who are us liberals supposedly jealous of and why? There are liberals in the US you know. Why would US liberals be trying to attack their own country?

    There are probably plenty of other reasons as well why many people are straying from religion, or religious values...but I blame part of it on the rest of the world. It is what they want for us, because it is what they have. When I say the rest of the world, I mean the liberals.
    Um, there's absolutely no logic behind this argument whatsoever. The rest of the world is not liberal. There are liberal and conservative countries, and countries with a mix of both. There are countries that are far stricter about enforcing a single religion than we are. How exactly is the rest of the world responsible for liberal or atheistic movements in the US? My movement towards atheism was a result of science, not influence from other countries.

    This is what I call overzealous patriotism. Pride in one's country is a good thing, but so much pride that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of an internal source of problems, and choose to blame them on everyone else instead on no real grounds, is not.

    I mean England has an official State religion for crying out loud.

    Originally posted by Tiikeri
    However as Kiva pointed out, most Americans dislike Europe and the UK in particular, I have no idea why, but they do. Maybe one of you could explain to me why?
    You guys sure do love making sweeping generalizations, don't you? What gave you the idea that most Americans dislike Europe? That sounds like an unfounded stereotype to me. I could just as easily say most Europeans hate America and then ask why.

    Originally posted by Only-now
    I know that Europe is not as openly religious like America...I don't really believe it is really a good thing.
    Why? Why should more openness about religion be better? Like I asked the OP, do you think religion automatically equals morality and lack of religion automatically equals immorality?

    Originally posted by Only-now
    There have been PLENTY of Christian presidents...probably the majority...and I don't think that Bush is any different other than the fact that he mentions his faith in He tried to pass an amendment to ban gay marriage on a constitutional level. Which would be a violation of the 1st Amendment seeing as the only arguments against gay marriage are religious ones.
    So yeah, I'd say he's a bit more forceful about his religious beliefs and working them into government than some of our past leaders have been.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    What I mean is that the majority of Europe is not as religious as the U.S..because they dislike us
    soooo your saying...just becuse we dont have a relegion...we dont lika ya?....

    do you seriesly think europe goes like this ?

    "hey whana join a relegion like Christianty?"

    (nhaa all amaricans are that )

    "ohh yeah right then i dont want to"


    i dont know how you judge things out there but in Sweden we judge folks baised upon there actions not relegion nore an other thing...

    becuse saying we whole freaking europe judge you becuse you have a realgion and we not is the dumbest thing iv ever heard!

    il tell you one thing where the most relegious friendly country there is!

    in school is one easy way to see it we dont alow caps and other headwear in the classroom but we do allow a girl from islam wearing her headwear becouse its a part of her realegion the same goes for any other with a relegion that demands you whearing headwear or a cross or whatever

    So dont you come and say we disslike you for having a realgion becuse we sure as hell wouldent let the realgious ones wearing headwears in the class room while all the other kids who wears caps and other headwhere without a realgion have to sit there and take that they are not alod a headwhere becuse there not a part of a relegion who demands it!


    and thats only an exampel! last time i checked those who have to pray 3 times aday are alod to aswel despite work or school!.

    so dont come here saying we dont like you becuse your relgius if we would have the slightest thing agesnt you we wouldent bend our own rules to help your realgius belives would we?...

  17. #37
    Aka STM (Administrator ) Sadiki's Avatar
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    I was wondering the same thing as Shadow.. I don't think anyone is not religious because they think US is religious, I think it's just because they don't believe in anything or believe in something diffrend than any christian subclass. ( which this topic seems to be about, not saying there isn't any other religions )

    I think a lot of countries in Europe have just came to realise that goverment and religions can't be connected in anyway and in my opinion they really shouldn't, because if laws are made based on in example christianity then it will be unfair for those who have diffrend belieaf. Like in example gay marriage that has been talked a lot on this forum, if christianity doesn't allow that it doesn't mean that rest of the people should suffer from what some religions is teaching for their followers. I mean I don't really beleave in any higher power.. and if I was gay and wanted to marry someone, I bet I would be pretty pissed off if some christian would come to tell me that " you can't get married beacuse god doesn't allow gay marriages " Who cares if Christian god doesn't allow it? that should only effect on people who are christian and even if christian gay people want to get married they should be able to just not in church because as being god's room and the fact that The Bible says about gay people it can't be tolarated there.

    so yeah, that statement is just bunch of ****. No body really hates US because it's religions even it might seem so because people judge US using god in their speaches to cause propaganda and get support for their warfares...


    And yes that is the way I see it from over here and it's also just my opinion.

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    Off-Topic:

    Originally posted by Only-now
    If you ever hear an American criticize a European country, it is usually France. One because of how they think of/treat us, and also because it has become one of those things you joke about. Regardless, and though it is sad to say...a lot more Europeans dislike America than vice versa.
    They like us... we gave them Jerry Lewis "Crazy Lady!" ...

    Originally posted by Dyani
    America is not going to be the big boss of things for long. China is developing fast and will soon overtake America in terms of economic growth and power. Can you say *China World Police*? But they're smart, they wouldn't bother.
    No, we'll just retire and collect the money!

    ♩ "Summer's going fast, nights growing colder.
    Children growing up, old friends growing older.
    Freeze this moment a little bit longer.
    Make each sensation a little bit stronger." ♩

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    Yes, America is not nearly as religious as it once was. There's "atheists", Christians who really aren't Christian, and those with other beliefs. Many Christians claim non-Christians are poisoning the world, and some with warped beliefs or those who force beliefs are. But Christians force their religion and have prejudice too, like never before. There are preachers (like Paula White) who are loaded with money, have huge, expensive churches and clothes, and they get up there and preach about being humble and generous! Then many (not all) Catholic priests--which I am--preach all about respecting life, but they never actually speak out against abortion. In fact, our pastor told this woman who was a guest teaching a class at the Catholic school about abortion and he said to her "don't use the word, abortion!" And I've seen many priests and heard many homilies (sermons)--the homilies are often empty and stale. Love God and man and you'll go to heaven is well enough, but we hear it almost every Sunday. The priests give the people what they want, because they don't want to consider whether they believe abortion is wrong or not--it might make them uncomfortable! Ok, I'll shut up now.

    Or how about hypocrisy? Remove the Ten Commandments from a courtyard and Christians are outraged! Plan to build a mosque--this happened near my town--and Christians turn around and try to keep that from being removed.

    There is only a minority of true Christians today. There's good "atheists" and bad "atheists", good Christians and bad ones. We who are good all just have to pull together and fight evil.

  20. #40
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    I'm done with this topic because I am seeing that point where things are going to take a turn towards the explanation of every word, and every phrase...and I HATE that type of discussion.

    1) I did not say that we have a state religion, nor should we. Christian nation refers to the fact that the majority of our nation is populated by Christians. It is the major religion in this country.

    2) I was not referring to Atheists..I was referring to the left. I am not talking about people protesting back against Christian protests. I am talking about things such as not being able to display nativity scenes because it's "prejudice" or the fact that we have to take the word God out of every speech or inscription. THOSE are all attacks on Christianity and SOLEY on Christianity. They do not complain when another religion displays its beliefs publicly. They might instantly apologize to Muskims for something offensive (when they shouldnt have to)...but refuse to for Christians every time. There is a bias AGAINST Chrisitianity from the left.

    This is just the type of thing I mean. Apparently when I say the left, people assume that I don't realize that things are not black and white. It is completely obvious that there are liberal Christians and Conservative Atheists. Of course, you have to look at individual views as well. If you generally are for conservative values and laws...I suppose you can call yourself a conservative. You can still however, hold a liberal view on religion. Secondly, this view against religion IS generally held by the left. It does not mean that if you are generally a leftwing person in many issues...you can't be a Christian. However, this view that religion is a bad thing, needs to be taken out of everything it possibly can be, insulted at every turn, and attacked constantly is NOT perpetuated by the right...but the left. THAT is where I get my view of this from. The people that have conservative views on religion, and are generally left wing are irrelevant. I am speaking of the LIBERAL VIEW of religion, that is perpetuated by LIBERALS...thus making it a left wing idea.

    I admit, I believe I phrased my speech about the "rest of the world" in a bad way. I knew what i was trying to say...I posted a correction here I believe....or maybe in the other topic. I can't remember because we have two topics about the same things (someone should fix that). There is a large part of the industrial and civilized world that hold much more liberal beliefs than are generally present here in the U.S. Those same liberal beliefs that led to how Europe is today are also the same held by the liberals in this country. I am basically saying (not blaming, didn't mean it like that) that the libeal views on religion and other matters that much of Europe holds...are adopted by and influence the liberals in this country.

    No, I don't think religion ultimately equals morality. I think it helped establish parts of it, and I think it influences it...but it doesn't establish it completely nor totally sustain it. Religion however, is a major part of human life. It always has been. It provides benefits for society and for individuals mental health. Really though, the discussion is not about what religion is. It is about it being allowed in public. You see, the left wing view is not one that says "destroy religion" (not yet anyways)...it is simply trying to supress it from the public. Why? Why is it a bad thing to display the major religion your population holds in public? Why is the mentioning of "God" in a speech a bad thing? Why is religious influence, or religion in general viewed as something that shouldn't be seen by anyone in public? I don't see the point behind it..and it certainly does not seem as if that is supporting free expression of your beliefs. Having the word "God" in a government building hurts no one...and doesn't defy or go against any law etc. There is no reason why it should be removed...when we have been poulated by Christians the entire time we have been a nation. We were founded by Christians...so why much we delete every memory of this from public life?

    I don't think Europe is necessarily is hurt by what they choose to follow in that area..but it seems like it is just a step towards stamping out religion completely. I don't understand why it is so important to make sure that there is no symbol of religion in public or near a government facility when that symbol doesnt change anything. If there is no established religion, there is no established religion....the word "God" in an inscription in a building of the government does not change that. I don't see why something that has been such a major part of our nation should be erased.

    Shadow....you just cut out part of my sentence and responded to it. That is not what I said...read the rest of the sentence before you try to twist my words to make me sound like an idiot. READ people....I did not say Europe is not religious because we are. I said that European countries that dislike the U.S attack us for being religious because that is a point at which we differ from them. They are less religious than us, so they attack us for being religious. It is just ammunition for them. That view of religion, and those attacks come from the left..and are perpetuated by the left....so it is no wonder that most of these countries that dislike us are also more liberal in government etc.

    I am not arguing we need to be more religious..I am arguing that we need to KEEP our religion around....and STOP trying to dismantle and erase it from publis life. It is part of our country, it has always been..and it should stay that way.

    ~Kiva

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