Originally posted by Only-now
2) I was not referring to Atheists..I was referring to the left. I am not talking about people protesting back against Christian protests. I am talking about things such as not being able to display nativity scenes because it's "prejudice" or the fact that we have to take the word God out of every speech or inscription. THOSE are all attacks on Christianity and SOLEY on Christianity. They do not complain when another religion displays its beliefs publicly. They might instantly apologize to Muskims for something offensive (when they shouldnt have to)...but refuse to for Christians every time. There is a bias AGAINST Chrisitianity from the left.
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However, this view that religion is a bad thing, needs to be taken out of everything it possibly can be, insulted at every turn, and attacked constantly is NOT perpetuated by the right...but the left. THAT is where I get my view of this from. The people that have conservative views on religion, and are generally left wing are irrelevant. I am speaking of the LIBERAL VIEW of religion, that is perpetuated by LIBERALS...thus making it a left wing idea.
You're still generalizing to an extreme. I have a large number of left-wing friends, I myself am liberal. None of us believe in specifically attacking or banning Christianity. You're referring to a radical minority, not the left as a whole and it's just downright offensive and ignorant to claim that this is a "leftist" idea.

I admit, I believe I phrased my speech about the "rest of the world" in a bad way. I knew what i was trying to say...I posted a correction here I believe....or maybe in the other topic. I can't remember because we have two topics about the same things (someone should fix that). There is a large part of the industrial and civilized world that hold much more liberal beliefs than are generally present here in the U.S. Those same liberal beliefs that led to how Europe is today are also the same held by the liberals in this country. I am basically saying (not blaming, didn't mean it like that) that the libeal views on religion and other matters that much of Europe holds...are adopted by and influence the liberals in this country.
You can claim this all you want but I see no evidence of it. Once again, my views were my own decisions based on my own experiences and were not at all affected by the views of other countries. Most Americans are downright ignorant of social and economic policies of other countries so I'm not quite sure how their "liberal ideas" are managing to affect us regardless of that. And how much time have you spent studying the religious practices of other countries, by the way? Where are you getting this information that most of Europe holds the same beliefs as liberal Americans and that said belief involves considering religion to be a bad thing?

No offense, but everything you've said on this matter so far reeks of conservative patriotic propaganda: Liberals have crazy radical views, liberals hate religion, liberal views are bad, other countries are a bad influence on America. It's so stereotypical it makes me sad. Where are you getting this stuff? Personal observation or a few websites making these absurd claims?

No, I don't think religion ultimately equals morality. I think it helped establish parts of it, and I think it influences it...but it doesn't establish it completely nor totally sustain it. Religion however, is a major part of human life. It always has been. It provides benefits for society and for individuals mental health. Really though, the discussion is not about what religion is. It is about it being allowed in public. You see, the left wing view is not one that says "destroy religion" (not yet anyways)...it is simply trying to supress it from the public. Why? Why is it a bad thing to display the major religion your population holds in public? Why is the mentioning of "God" in a speech a bad thing? Why is religious influence, or religion in general viewed as something that shouldn't be seen by anyone in public? I don't see the point behind it..and it certainly does not seem as if that is supporting free expression of your beliefs. Having the word "God" in a government building hurts no one...and doesn't defy or go against any law etc. There is no reason why it should be removed...when we have been poulated by Christians the entire time we have been a nation. We were founded by Christians...so why much we delete every memory of this from public life?
I don't think you really understand the left wing view very well at all. I, and all the left-wing people I know, frankly don't care whether or not it says "God" on our money or religious documents are displayed in a government building. My understanding was that they're there because historically, they influenced our legal system, and I'm okay with that. I personally don't like having to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance (especially since it was added later), but I just don't say it. I don't feel it's necessary to start some major campaign to have it removed.

You're judging liberals as a whole based on the loud radicals who end up on the news a lot and it's a little offensive. Please open your mind and eyes a bit and remember that the rule "radicals do not necessarily = the majority" applies to every group, not just Christians.

I don't think Europe is necessarily is hurt by what they choose to follow in that area..but it seems like it is just a step towards stamping out religion completely. I don't understand why it is so important to make sure that there is no symbol of religion in public or near a government facility when that symbol doesnt change anything. If there is no established religion, there is no established religion....the word "God" in an inscription in a building of the government does not change that. I don't see why something that has been such a major part of our nation should be erased.
Can you provide me with some specific examples of what Europe is doing? The things I've heard, such as some European countries allowing gay marriage, sound more like an improvement of human rights policies rather than an attempt to stamp out religion.

Originally posted by Darkslash 2) Bush is no more outwardly religious in his words and actions than the average American president.
Did you miss the part where he tried to amend the constitution to include a law based on religious belief?

3) "God Bless America" is not propaganda.
4) America is not in a "Holy War" against Islam.
Technically you are right on both those counts, but it does make people like me a little uncomfortable when he includes statements like, "God is on OUR side in this war!" Many of his statements imply that this is a war of religions, or a war of our God vs. their "false God" and frankly, I just don't think that's right.

6) There is an overall European attitude of disgust toward George Bush (if this is not the case, please correct me); which to many Americans translates into disgust toward the United States (our democratic tradition enmeshes our elected leaders with the country they lead), which explains what Kiva has been saying: as you've evidenced a general belief that America is "over-religious" due in part to George Bush acting, presumably, upon religious principles, and as you dislike Bush, it seems like you find fault in America due to its religious tendencies.
I don't think it's just about him acting on religious principles. His excessive use of religious belief does annoy me, but that's not the core reason I dislike him, and my bet is the same thing applies to non-Americans. I have issues with his environmental policies, with some of his foreign policies, and with his questionable level of intelligence. If non-Americans dislike him, frankly, I don't blame them, I just hope they realize that he does not reflect the behavior or opinions of all Americans and remember that even though enough of us voted him into office (twice...I have no idea how) his popularity rating is waaaay low amongst even his supporters these days.