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Thread: America: Not religous enough

  1. #61
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    Originally posted by Darkslash

    @SpiritWolf: No, I didn't miss that part about protecting the sanctity of marriage. It's actually quite silly that we even need to consider such an amendment (if this were an issue 50 years ago it would have been passed unanimously, with God all over it), but we've been forced to this point with the gay agenda/culture being pushed upon our nation so forcefully. There are some things worth defending, and the social structure of millenia is one of them.
    I don't really get your point. Society is always changing...today's society is not the same as it was 20, 40, 100 years ago. Hell, 50 years ago a good portion of American society was segregated...150 years ago slavery was a part of America's society (albeit with a different effect depending on what part of the country you were in)...But society changed in its progression...and it's still happening today. This time, though, instead of the color of your skin or whether you're a man or a woman, the hot issue is gender (not in terms of what physical sex you are) and sexual preference.

  2. #62
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    Perhaps I was too succinct... I specifically meant marriage/family system of raising successive generations.

    People like you are exerting an influence over the government and actually encouraging intolerance based on a person's simply being different (especially about something that is not something they can choose), when our country claims to have risen above such a thing. I am truly saddened that views such as yours are still so popular in this country and I hope that changes soon and you people eventually realize how bigoted you are being.
    Yes, because slapping the "intolerant bigot" label on someone just because they don't support the current social direction of the country is the best reason to marginalize their views, express dismay at them rather than debate the merits of their ideas, portray oneself as the victim of a supposed stranglehold on the country's policy, and generally to further the ideological intolerance you claim to uphold.

    Good work!

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Perhaps I was too succinct... I specifically meant marriage/family system of raising successive generations.


    Yes, because slapping the "intolerant bigot" label on someone just because they don't support the current social direction of the country is the best reason to marginalize their views, express dismay at them rather than debate the merits of their ideas, portray oneself as the victim of a supposed stranglehold on the country's policy, and generally to further the ideological intolerance you claim to uphold.

    Good work!
    The second someone starts talking about "the gay agenda," it's a clear sign to me what their views on gay people are. This isn't just a matter of "not supporting the current social direction of the country." Don't try to hide your views behind that double-talk. You're buying into homophobic propaganda which suggests to me you have a very set mindset on those of different sexual orientation since anyone who has done any unbiased/analytical research on the subject will quickly see how utterly insane and false that propaganda is.

    Disliking and stereotyping an entire group of people based solely on sexual orientation is bigotry. You can't justify that with any claims about defending our social structure.

    If you really want to try to claim I said anything unjustified about you, then go ahead and give me a reasonable non-religious argument (seeing as the laws of one religion should not apply to people who do not practice it) for why it's a good moral thing to ban gay marriage, or as you called up, "uphold the sanctity of marriage."

    And I notice you're already going down the "future generations" route of argumentation. Gay couples do have kids, you realize that, right? Not with each other, but via invitro fertilization or adoption, the latter of which is actually a great benefit to society seeing as there are so many orphaned kids out there. Furthermore, not everyone is gay, there are still plenty of straight couples having kids (although not all straight couples have kids, so not being able to have kids is an absurd reason to be against gay marriage) so I promise you, the human race is in no danger of dying out.

  4. #64
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Perhaps I was too succinct... I specifically meant marriage/family system of raising successive generations.
    Ah, I see...I was getting a slightly different message...

    Anyways, I happen to find a culture's system of decent, lineage, and marriage to be pretty fascinating. By contrast, many other cultures have lineage and decent systems that are easily more complex than ours. I actually find that many cultures have family systems that are more successful than ours in certain aspects, too (ours placing the focus on the nuclear family). For instance, in many tribal cultures, there are no such things as orphans. Every child is a part of a lineage or clan and is raised by their extended family instead of just a parent or two...such a system tends to make raising children and passing down cultural traits, morals, etc more successful. I also find marriage fascinating...especially how polygamous relationships benefit the community as a whole in many cultures.

    If you look at marriage and family in America, it seems that while the basic family ideal (which the focus of society is mainly on the nuclear family) has stayed the same (correct me if I'm wrong)...marriage has had changes here and there. Some aspects of marriage, such as arranged marriages, have been defined by a person's specific cultural background and then changed in later generations as the idea of marriage changed through the generations. But the concept of marriage in society as a whole has changed over time, too. Evidence in this would be such things as Anti-miscegenation laws being passed in some states in the last 200 years and later repealed as society came to accept interracial marriage. Even though the idea of interracial marriage is widely accepted by society today, it seems that about 50 years ago and before that anti-miscegenation was pretty common in society.

  5. #65
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    So, SpiritWolf, to recap what you're saying:

    • I, because I for any reason oppose the agenda of the American gay community, am a bigot.
    • Because I refer to the trend as an "agenda" (since it is being forced through courts rather than legislated as it should be) am therefore a sheep who has fallen prey to propagandists.
    • I am "hiding behind double-talk" (? -- I think I've been pretty clear about where I stand)
    • The pro-gay message is "unbiased" and "supported by research" while I am simply making homophobic religious arguments because I feel like being biased and bigoted.
    • While you can give emotionally-based arguments and clever interpretations of our civil rights laws, I cannot base my opinion on any religious principle (which, by the way, you've assumed I do... this is not the case)
    • You feel your intolerance of my opinions (and your very personal vitriol) are "justified."

    Really, you must realize it is difficult to have an honest debate about any subject when one goes about slinging such mud.

    I don't need a "religious" or "moral" argument to oppose the extension of privileges to people whose behavior I don't approve of. It's really that simple. I don't believe we've somehow had it wrong for thousands of years.

  6. #66
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    So, SpiritWolf, to recap what you're saying:

    [list][*]I, because I for any reason oppose the agenda of the American gay community, am a bigot.[*]Because I refer to the trend as an "agenda" (since it is being forced through courts rather than legislated as it should be) am therefore a sheep who has fallen prey to propagandists.
    For even assuming there is an "agenda" is an ignorant and intolerant acceptance of homophobic propaganda. Assuming you're referring to the famous "gay agenda" sites which make all these absurd claims about how gay people are responsible for AIDS, how they try to recruit children, etc.

    There is no mysterious gay conspiracy. Quite simply, gay people want to be able to marry the people they love, and don't want to be treated poorly for their sexual orientation. There's no hidden insidious "agenda" there.

    [*]The pro-gay message is "unbiased" and "supported by research" while I am simply making homophobic religious arguments because I feel like being biased and bigoted.
    I don't know why you're doing it, you'll have to tell me that yourself. I never assumed your motives, I simply said your comments were homophobic and bigoted.

    [*]While you can give emotionally-based arguments and clever interpretations of our civil rights laws, I cannot base my opinion on any religious principle (which, by the way, you've assumed I do... this is not the case)
    The only case you can make for there being anything wrong with homosexuality is that "the Bible says it's a sin." Even this case is questionable, as I know many Christians who feel differently. There are no cases you can make in the realm of science or social stability against gay marriage or homosexuals. And when a law is to apply to everyone then that's what it should be based on, ultimately. It's unfair to enforce the rules of a single religion on the entire public when not everyone practices said religion. Again, do you feel atheists should not be allowed to marry as well?

    [*]You feel your intolerance of my opinions (and your very personal vitriol) are "justified."
    Claiming I'm being intolerant by pointing out your own intolerance is a weak argument. I'd assume you're against racism. Would you consider that (being against racism) unfair intolerance as well?

    Really, you must realize it is difficult to have an honest debate about any subject when one goes about slinging such mud.
    The mudslinging began when you started bringing false, biased propaganda into the debate. I'm simply pointing out that such views are incredibly close-minded and based on false pretenses.

    I don't need a "religious" or "moral" argument to oppose the extension of privileges to people whose behavior I don't approve of. It's really that simple. I don't believe we've somehow had it wrong for thousands of years.
    Can you give me a non-religious argument for why you don't approve of their behavior though? I'm assuming that if you're a Christian, you also don't approve of the behavior of not believing in God. Do you think it should be illegal to be an atheist as well? Do you think everyone in this country should be forced to practice your religion regardless of their own beliefs?

    And don't give me the "It's old so it must be right," argument about marriage. Marriage has changed a great deal throughout history. It is not at all the same as it was when the Bible was written, or even the same as it was 20 years ago. Rituals change in accordance with society. Additionally, you keep conveniently ignoring the fact that legal marriage and religious marriage are two seperate things. And lastly, if something being consistently the same for a long period of history makes it "right" then perhaps we should reinstate slavery and the possession of women as property? Those are very old and consistent practices which have only recently been abolished.

  7. #67
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    Originally posted by SimbaTheMighty
    How recent was that? about a month ago at least news over here said it has gone down to 40%. And while being in CA I have never heard good word about Bush been said.
    From what I just read (Ramussen), his overall job approval rating (as of Noon EST today) is more like 38%, but it varies from poll to poll...most of 'em look to be from mid-upper 30s to lower 40% approval. *shrugs*

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  8. #68
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    in fact I hear moe often how people who don't like the U.S try to compare us to Europe in terms of "Europe does it this way, so we should too!". If you ever hear an American criticize a European country, it is usually France. One because of how they think of/treat us, and also because it has become one of those things you joke about. Regardless, and though it is sad to say...a lot more Europeans dislike America than vice versa.
    ~Kiva
    I had to laugh when i read this, the thing is Europe often does do things so much better than America... but i guess thats now what the topic is about. Also Its not fair to say that more Europeans dislike America than vice versa, unless of course you've carried out sample studies across both Europe and America. The world doesn?t revolve around America, and as for Bush mentioning his faith in his speeches? comon? as if he writes his own!

    Tell you what though, you should all just quit living in America and Europe and move over here to Australia! Were the perfect country! And all this bickering would come to an end!

    Anyhoo I'm getting a headace from reading all this, I'm not at all religious in fact day by day I'm shunning religion more. Anyhoo, when I was over in the US it did seem rather pro Christianity (in comparison to Australia), though that could have been because I was staying with Eva and her father is a pastor ^^ ?

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by SIMBAtheENIGMA

    Tell you what though, you should all just quit living in America and Europe and move over here to Australia! Were the perfect country! And all this bickering would come to an end!
    ...Yeah right...with all your poisonous snakes and lizards and bats and sting rays...

    Mexico is the perfect country...with it's awesome food, Cancun, Mazatlan, and the fact that you can bribe pretty much anyone to get off the hook...it's Awesome!...Viva Mexico!......Just don't drink the water...

  10. #70
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    Ok so Mexico is cool to... but i still think aussyland is better, so what if we have killer animals...

    Don't forget to mention the trap door spiders that hide in the ground and attack when you walk by roog!!!

  11. #71
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    Originally posted by SIMBAtheENIGMA
    IWere the perfect country!
    No country with many species of giant weird spiders is perfect! D:

  12. #72
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    Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
    Claiming I'm being intolerant by pointing out your own intolerance is a weak argument. I'd assume you're against racism. Would you consider that (being against racism) unfair intolerance as well?
    Conclusion: Both of you are intolerant and bigot - towards each other's point.


    ... Do you think it should be illegal to be an atheist as well? Do you think everyone in this country should be forced to practice your religion regardless of their own beliefs?
    *Rises hand*Eer, every country has its national religion and its rules based on certain traditions, so they should be followed, leastways not violating them as far as they want to live there.

  13. #73
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    Zoltan has a good point, SpiritWolf. Why don't you argue as strongly for religious tolerance and homosexual rights in Middle Eastern countries, whose oppression of dissent is, you must admit, far, far worse than that of the United States.

  14. #74
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    I can't think of many things that Western Europe does that we should emulate. Their crime, unemplyment rate, taxes, economies etc are all worse than the United States. The things that they do partake in that I would like to see here are being prevented here by those of the same political views that run those European countries (liberals). An example of this would be the use of nuclear power. We are one of three coutries with the most nuclear facilities in the world..yet we are prohibited from actually using them. So...no...I would hope to GOD that we don't become like Europe. (no offense to you Europeans here).

    Also..Australia was a rather nice country..at least it seemed so to me when I was there. They have been an ally of the U.S for quite a while as well.

    ~Kiva

  15. #75
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    Australia was a rather nice country..at least it seemed so to me when I was there. They have been an ally of the U.S for quite a while as well.

    ~Kiva
    Well not so much as ally, i see it more of us being in the US's pocket and of course if you compare the whole of western Europe to America the statistics will looks bad, but i'm not gona start on which country is better, though i understand that you have loyalty to your country, and that does give a bias opinion on your behalf. (its only natural)

  16. #76
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    It isn't just a biased opinion..and most of Europe is worse or unfluctuating (in a positive direction) in all of the areas I mentioned. I wasn't referring to lumping all of Europe together...I meant looking at the individual European countries in comparison to the U.S and then stating that as a whole...the European nations do worse in those areas than the United States.

    I guess you can see your countries relationship with ours however you want....but...they have been allied with us in almost every war we have fought in which it was possible for them to do so. We have good relations with them etc. I personally like to see them as an ally...instead of an enemy.

    ~Kiva

  17. #77
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    Originally posted by Zoltan

    *Rises hand*Eer, every country has its national religion and its rules based on certain traditions, so they should be followed, leastways not violating them as far as they want to live there.
    Traditions don't always have to be followed...many people broke the traditions...people such as Gandhi and Rosa Parks.

    Zoltan has a good point, SpiritWolf. Why don't you argue as strongly for religious tolerance and homosexual rights in Middle Eastern countries, whose oppression of dissent is, you must admit, far, far worse than that of the United States.
    Well if the subject is about religion and such in America, why should Middle Eastern countries be brought into it...It's a huge Red Herring...

    Plus Spiritwolf lives in America, so it would only make sense that one would feel more inclined to argue subjects that are closer to home. It's human nature...it's why most people don't really feel about stuff like someone getting murdered across the country, unless that murder hits close to home. That's why Columbine was such a huge story, kids getting shot up in school hits close to home with parents of school aged children and many of those children themselves...

    Their crime, unemplyment rate, taxes, economies etc are all worse than the United States.
    Sources?

  18. #78
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    Originally posted by Only-now
    I can't think of many things that Western Europe does that we should emulate. Their crime, unemplyment rate, taxes, economies etc are all worse than the United States.
    Well I don't know what you base on that again. I mean yeah there is more crimes in most of Europian countries than in US, but only on violant crimes and car jackings, in murders and drug crimes US is still way ahead so I can't say which is worse. Unemplyment rate is a bit higher too in EU also, like 9% against US 5.5% so yeah that is worse I guess. Taxes are higher also but the reason to it is the social secure that most of EU countries have way better than US, like nearly every country has basic health insurance against the health insurance policy in US that you have to be able to afford, I have even heard rumors of people that have died in hospital because no one has done anything to save them because of missing insurance, very humain indeed. about Economics... well I don't have much base on my statement on this, but what I think happens with a lot of times is that Europian companies register themself in US because of the lower tax rates to get better resoults, so that also sets higher economic rate for US than rest of the world, lately thought other countries have been catching up on economics too ( many Europian countries, China, Japan and so on )

    So from there I can pick at least one thing that US should improve and that is to increase their tax rate a bit and also set higher taxes on companies and that way get some sort of social secure for people who can't afford it othervise, such as basic medical insurance and decent unempyment coverage.
    I also would probably do something for the system of being able to sue who ever you want for nearly any reason.

    And I'm not saying US has it worse than Europe, I know a lot of counties in Europe where justice doesn't happen too well such as Turkey and Russia. but I don't think countires in western Europe / central Europe / northern Europe do lose on US much on anything

    Like tell me how many EU countries you see in list of the most competitive counties 2006-2007

    1. Switzerland
    2. Finland
    3. Sweden
    4. Denmark
    5. Singapore
    6. US
    7. Japan
    8. Germany
    10. UK
    11. Hong Kong
    12. Norway
    13. Taiwan,China
    14. Iceland
    15. Israel
    16. Canada

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    Well, it would be surprising if a (comparing to the whole USA) small European country had stronger economy than the USA

  20. #80
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    Doesn't California alone have the worlds 5th largest economy or something like that?

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