Originally posted by Only-now Your notion that Christians are "forcing" their religion on people is exactly what I am referring to. People believe, that becuse Christianity is so prominent in this country...any mention of those beliefs in school, on money, in speeches, in the pledge etc is going to result in it becoming the state sponsered religion. I don't even know what your viewpoint on those things is...but from the way you are speaking, it would seem that you support them.
It's not a matter of people feeling that any mention of the religion is bad, it's the unfair treatment of the religion in comparison to other beliefs, as I already explained. There is a big difference between normal exposure and exposure specifically in favor of a single belief system. And honestly, I don't mind some excess exposure of Christianity, because I understand that there are many Christians in the US. It is actually a small minority of atheists that rally against things like God stamped on money, which is part of the reason that's not been changed yet. However, for someone to come in and say that Christians are being oppressed or under-represented when they already have an extreme advantage is just absurd. I'm not arguing for less representation of Christianity in all circumstances, I'm arguing against more, while you seem to be arguing for more, which is why I ask the question, just how much do you want?

I also never stated that people are trying to suppress Christians from practicing their religion. I stated that they try to suppress it being expressed or exposed to the general public through displays, speeches etc. They go nuts anytime Chrisitianity is talked about or plays a part in some aspect of school. I don't mean it being taught religiously in school, I mean afterschool activities, the word "God" in the pledge, the mentioning of genesis, etc.
Again, that's a small minority of people who freak out over the simple mention of the word God. What the majority of atheists are upset by is the encouragement of Christianity above any other belief system. You should hardly feel threatened because of a select few people complaining about the use of the word God in a school play. I don't see why that makes you say, "America is not religious enough."

To answer your question..YES, you do need to bring up those examples. Please show me some cases in which Christians tried to force their beliefs on others. That means exactly what you said it means...not that a majority of people who are Christians supported a law or act that others did not, and they won. It means a case in which Christians actually tried to force someone to believe in Christianity. The courts upholding a law that is supported by Christians does not mean that Christians are forcing thier beliefs on anyone.
Can do.

In 2006 the US Supreme Court ruled that the Centro Espirita Beneficiente Uniao do Vegetal church in New Mexico was exempt from the law against taking hallucinogenic drugs (which everyone else was still required to follow) on the grounds that they claimed the only way for them to understand God was to use these drugs.

In 2004, a family sued a school for telling their 12 year old son not to wear a shirt to shcool which read "Homosexuality is a sin, Islam is a lie, abortion is murder. Some issues are just black and white!" They won the lawsuit. I don't know how anyone could consider that appropriate attire for an elementary school and it baffles me that the parents actually won the case on the basis that their "religious freedoms" were being violated.

I don't think I should even need to cite the number of times the issue of evolution has been brought up in school board meetings and courts. Everyone should know about that by now.

Sadly, I could look up many cases in which Christianity and its display, mention, terminology, etc were directly the topic and the result was that they were supposed to be removed or altered. To be even more clear...seperation of church and state is not even mentioned in the Constitution other than there being no government sposored religion, which Christianity is not and isn't even close to being.
I'd like to hear some specific examples and why you feel they're problematic.
And no, the exact words "separation of church and state" are not in the Constitution, but the sentiment is clearly implied. The definition of separation of church and state is "no government sponsored religion."

I don't know where you have been living...but in the past I have classified myself as an atheist and I didn't get discriminated against. I haven't heard any stories of such, and it is never reported on. How someone responds to your telling them that you are an athiest is completely individual. There is not mass discrimination against atheists, nor have any Christians I have met ever done anything other than ask me to come to their church, or pray for me to convert. No one insulted me, or tried to force their beliefs on me. Since you are going off personal experience, I guess my own will serve as a counter to that. Please give me some valid examples of where atheists other than yourself were continually discriminated against. If there are any, I haven't heard of them.
How long were you an atheist and how vocal were you about it? I'm not nearly as vocal about my atheism as many Christians are about their Christianity, but if I were I can only imagine how people would treat me if how people react to my atheism now is any indication. People who know me are understanding and respectful, but extremely religious strangers are not. I'm not saying this never goes both ways, I'm just saying it seems to be socially acceptable to belittle or bash atheists, but it's considered intolerant or rude to belittle or bash Christians. I'd just like some consistency is all. I don't want to have to walk on eggshells around the beliefs of others but I want those who debate with me to treat me with the same level of courtesy that they'd want me to show them.

As for other examples of discrimination against atheists, here's a fun little exchange between our president and Robert I Sherman, an author of an atheist magazine:
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman: Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.
Here are some more examples: http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.c...ygallup_1.html Note which group had the least number of votes.

The Boy Scouts of America do not allow atheist members.

Here's some fun excerpts from various state constitutions:

* The Bill of Rights of the Texas Constitution (Article I, Section 4) last amended on September 13, 2003 states that an official may be "excluded from holding office" if she/he does not "acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."

* North Carolina's Constitution of 1971, Article 6 Sec. 8 states "Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God....". This was challenged and overturned by Voswinkel v. Hunt (1979).

* South Carolina's Constitution, Article 6 Section 2: "Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

* Tennessee's Bill of Rights: Article 9, Section 2: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."
Christianity isn't under attack from every angle...but there are enough people who dislike it or want to reduce it's exposure that it gets to the courts, is on the news, and has books written that specifically mention it.
Again, I need specific examples to comment on. And books are written about it? God forbid! Citizens in a country with a policy of free speech dare to right books about how they don't like Christianity? How could they?! (Is that seriously one of your complaints?)

THIS President is "devoutly" Christian..not all have been...not even most. He didn't want to amend the Constitution for his OWN personal beliefs...he wanted to because the majority of Americans wanted that change.
I never said all other presidents ever were devoutly Christian. I was simply citing that as one of the examples of the extremely Christian-supportive state our country is in at the moment. And he wanted to amend the constitution based on religious law. That would have been a violation of the 1st amendment regardless of how many people supported it. They'd have to out-vote the 1st amendment first.

It's funny...because what you mention makes sense. The nation is made up of a majority of Christians. So...if your school is 80% Christian..and they are all going to take off Christmas day, etc (not to mention teachers)...then it makes sense to just close the school for that holiday.

Anyone, from any other religion can take off any day they want from school for w/e holiday they want. However..you don't just close the whole school for a Jewish holiday, when there are only 5 Jewish people in the school.
Actually, the majority of the students at my high school were Jewish. Odd that we never got any Jewish holidays off though, just Christian ones.

And schools have a restriction on the number of absences students can have. Additionally, there's a difference between getting a holiday, and actually taking the day off when school is still in session and thereby missing your classwork for the day. So it's not really a simple matter of them just taking the day off whenever they want.

Once again...most businesses are run by AMERICANS...and America is made up of CHRISTIANS for the most part...so you are upset because Christians are displaying images of their faith?
I'm not upset by that at all. I don't care how someone decorates their store, again, I'm not arguing for the removal of Christian ideas/symbols in ALL circumstances, I'm simply pointing out that it is ridiculous to claim Christians are generally treated with an unfair and oppressive bias in this country.

No school provides "creation textbooks".
Got any sources on that? Or do you just not know of any schools that do this so you assume it doesn't happen? A friend of mine was educated with a science text entitled: Exploring Creation with Biology.

A "disclaimer" that states that evolution is only a theory is actually correct. Given that evolution isn't even as well supported as claimed, it makes sense that it shouldnt be taught as FACT, when it is not.
That is not quite what it says:
"The Oklahoma State Textbook Committee voted Nov. 5 to require all new biology textbooks to carry a disclaimer stating that evolution is a "controversial theory" that can refer to "the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things."
http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/...oklahoma.shtml

That is an incredibly flawed and misleading description of evolution.

Additionally, here's more of this committe's mission statement:
he State Textbook Committee shall have the authority to insert a one-page summary, opinion, or disclaimer into any textbook reviewed and authorized for use in the public schools of Oklahoma.... SECTION 3. When adopting science textbooks, the Committee shall ensure that the textbooks include acknowledgment that human life was created by one God of the Universe." Passed the House of Representatives the 5th day of April, 2000.
And actually evolution is as well-supported as is claimed. I believe last time you and I had a debate on this, you got tired of the debate and left after I kept pointing out that you were making some incredibly flawed assumptions and massive misunderstandings about the theory. Just because you do not understand it well enough to accept the validity of it does not mean you know better than the scientific community as a whole.

Those biology textbooks you like so much still have the peppered moth experiment as valid, and the speculative, completely unsupported drawings of horse evolution, as well as the Miller-Urey experiment. All WRONG.
The peppered moth experiment was extremely valid. Why do you say it was not? Additionally, what specifically do you consider invalid about the Miller-Urey experiment? And the "unsupported drawings of horse evolution," can you provide some sources on what specifically you are referring to?

Basically you are demonstrating exactly what I am talking about. This politically correct, bias against Christianity. It's completely wrong. If YOU don't like the way this country is run, then why don't you move away? I LOVE my country...besides, you are in California, which is almost another country already.
Throwing the "why don't you leave" argument back at me isn't the least bit effective since it shows you completely missed my point in stating it the way I stated it.