Same Sex Unions In America

[Dyani]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...dments_by_type

This caught my eye when browsing on Wiki. I'm sure this topic had been posted before but I searched through Scar's Lair and couldn't find it.

Twenty-seven U.S. states (pictured) have adopted constitutional amendments to prevent same-sex marriage or civil unions. Why is this? Is this purely a homophobic reaction by the masses or a religious thing?

[Shadow]

fu3king basterds...

[Stormfury]

It would seem rights aren't God-given. They're earned, apparently.

[Dyani]

Mind you, whos gonna agree with that sort of thing?

[Katari]

Dyani, apparently 27 of the 50 United States agree with that sort of thing....

[Only-now]

This is already being discussed in another topic..and I don't feel like getting into another debate here...but marriage is not a right Sonique...just as driving isn't. Any church, or judge/legal-person-who-can-marry-people can say that they don't want to marry two people for whatever reason. The government doesn't have to provide for marriage..and the church is seperate and can make its own decisions...and it is also not protected by the Constitution. So...no one has the right to marry..straight or gay. If it were a right, we wouldn't be having a debate on how to establish it etc. Freedom of speech and expression have nothing to do with gay marriage..as gays are allowed to say just as much as straights, as well as express themselves as much as they want (even if it is asinine) This is all I am saying though.

On a side note, I am also starting to get tired of the amount of cursing I see at Lea...definitely has built up over the years.

~Kiva

[Dyani]

STL = well... tis typical. And LOL KATARI! Forgot that aspect. I was meaning about people on Lea, not many people will agree with it because it such an unpopular viewpoint. Although freedom of speech does work both ways. But it is like saying *yes you're free to do blah blah blah, except being who you are*.

Thank God for being British, even if we only allowed civil partnerships a couple of years ago.

Oh, and Only-Now... piss off! No i really don't mean that and I agree with you really, sorry it was too tempting.

[Aurelian]

Originally posted by Only-now
This is already being discussed in another topic..and I don't feel like getting into another debate here...but marriage is not a right Sonique...just as driving isn't. Any church, or judge/legal-person-who-can-marry-people can say that they don't want to marry two people for whatever reason. The government doesn't have to provide for marriage..and the church is seperate and can make its own decisions...and it is also not protected by the Constitution. So...no one has the right to marry..straight or gay. If it were a right, we wouldn't be having a debate on how to establish it etc. Freedom of speech and expression have nothing to do with gay marriage..as gays are allowed to say just as much as straights, as well as express themselves as much as they want (even if it is asinine) This is all I am saying though.

On a side note, I am also starting to get tired of the amount of cursing I see at Lea...definitely has built up over the years.


~Kiva

Sounds about right, Kiva, but it makes you wonder how the government managed to obtain the rights to ban churches in seperate states from using their rightfull powers to marry same-sex-couples. If religion can't be inserted into the government, why can the government be inserted into religios traditions?

But then, if marriage is still uniquly a religios tradition, then why are athiests allowed to marry? Wouldn't that be like a full-fledged homosexual having an afair with a person of the opposite gender? No, I don't think marriage is seen by the majority as being a religious tradition anymore. In fact, I think it is more a way for the government to decide on each couples income-tax situation. lol

About the swearing, Kiva and STL are right. Mufasa created this website as a place for Lion KIng fans of all ages to gather. Let's keep it apropraite to that description.

[Pnt]

Originally posted by Only-now
This is already being discussed in another topic..and I don't feel like getting into another debate here...but marriage is not a right Sonique...just as driving isn't. Any church, or judge/legal-person-who-can-marry-people can say that they don't want to marry two people for whatever reason. The government doesn't have to provide for marriage..and the church is seperate and can make its own decisions...and it is also not protected by the Constitution. So...no one has the right to marry..straight or gay. If it were a right, we wouldn't be having a debate on how to establish it etc. Freedom of speech and expression have nothing to do with gay marriage..as gays are allowed to say just as much as straights, as well as express themselves as much as they want (even if it is asinine) This is all I am saying though.

On a side note, I am also starting to get tired of the amount of cursing I see at Lea...definitely has built up over the years.

~Kiva

Eh, I wouldn't say that gay people have just as much an ability to express themselves. Simply admitting that one is homosexual can easily result in removal from a military or federal occupation. Likwise, homosexual people have little to no discrimination protection in a good number of states, though many companies have taken it upon themselves to add such a policy (Which is one thing I commend a lot of companies for). While one can't currently be arrested for being openly homosexual, they can lose their government job, and I consider that a violation of a person's rights and the general concept of an equal, democratic society.

Also, outside of freedom of speech, I also think it's wrong that a homosexual person cannot see his or her partner in the hospital if the person is seriously injured. Another thing that miffs me is how so many states are trying to ban gay adoption.

[Kovu The Lion]

Well there is a good reason.

take our pledge. "one nation under God"

Last time I checked Christianity condemned homosexuality (Bedding with the same-sex)

Hmm..

Though to be honest, I do think it has things to do with Homophobia, Pretty much people are scared of gay's because they think they may be touched inappropriately by them.

Most of the people who hate gay's have either seen one or been touched by one or been told jokes about them that are wrong or parental teachings.

Most people in America think of a gay guy, someone who is really outgoing, Likes to touch people, talk in a weird voice. and acts all giggly 24/7

Sadly, Not a lot of gay's are like that but, Loud minorities do stand out ~ Neph.

[Dyani]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
Last time I checked Christianity condemned homosexuality (Bedding with the same-sex)

Only with gay men, nowt about lesbians. Doesn't actually give an emphasis on it, as in *You shalt not sleep with a person of the same sex*, unless you're talking about the Old Testament. Mind you, take it in account of the time-frame they were in. The Romans had invaded and they really didn't give a toss about sex in any aspect. People were doing it with everyone/everything. Thus the people who were writing the ol' Bible probably thought, well lets not turn into the invading people, and have a *rage against the power* sort of book to lead the sheep along to rebellion.

All references to homosexuality are very vague in the Bible. I mean when you sit down and read the actual Hebrew Bible, not the translated stuff, you won't nessisarily find a reference to homosexuality.

[Aurelian]

Originally posted by Dyani
Only with gay men, nowt about lesbians. Doesn't actually give an emphasis on it, as in *You shalt not sleep with a person of the same sex*, unless you're talking about the Old Testament. Mind you, take it in account of the time-frame they were in. The Romans had invaded and they really didn't give a toss about sex in any aspect. People were doing it with everyone/everything. Thus the people who were writing the ol' Bible probably thought, well lets not turn into the invading people, and have a *rage against the power* sort of book to lead the sheep along to rebellion.

All references to homosexuality are very vague in the Bible. I mean when you sit down and read the actual Hebrew Bible, not the translated stuff, you won't nessisarily find a reference to homosexuality.

Iv'e alwasy said that it's in the translation of each version and each individual. The Bible isn't directions for life anyway. More of a guideline to follow. It's not like we have a 11th comandment that says, Thou shalt not sleep with another being of the same sex.

KTL

Ask the US government if we are ruled by the bible, and they will say NO. It's us civilians who threatened a major lawsuit when the government tried to take the words "Under God" out of the pledge, then again when they wanted to ban the pledge from schools. I agree that people are always afriad of what's different, though.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Dyani
The Romans had invaded and they really didn't give a toss about sex in any aspect. People were doing it with everyone/everything.

Urgh. Please to be going back to classical studies and learning about sex in the ancient world. Thank you. :woeisme:

[Dyani]

Romans were kind of promiscious compared to the Jews. What about the Roman Baths? What about when young men were training for wars with their older tutors? This is my basic knowledge and I know its not enough to really base an arguement on, so could you tell me some more, Neph?

[Kovu The Lion]

To be honest I think Gay Men started in Roman, when they had the olypimcs ffs i can't spell, anyways it was during Wrestling, since they often wrestled in the nude. They tended to bond together afterwards/etc

I think Homosexuality did origionate in Roman times, i'm not going to say for fact it did though, I just remember watching it on a historical documented movie somewhere

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Dyani
Romans were kind of promiscious compared to the Jews. What about the Roman Baths? What about when young men were training for wars with their older tutors? This is my basic knowledge and I know its not enough to really base an arguement on, so could you tell me some more, Neph?

Basically, in ancient times, there was no such thing as "homosexuality." If you were man, you married a woman, had kids, and that was that. Married men could have sex with any slaves they wished to, because they weren't real people (similar to the view that was held about black slaves; no soul and such) and it wasn't uncommon for men of high status to have sex with other women while married, though it was generally not thought a good idea if she was married - don't want to get into trouble with her husband, after all. It was pretty much frowned upon, socially anyway. There were also hetairai too (entertainers/prostitutes) which were a common aspect of symposiums.

Now, let me just say this - Romans Baths were not a Hot Bed of Sex, gay or otherwise. Of course, men and women had seperate bathing areas. The baths, unless you were very rich, were the only place you got to clean yourself, and so that time wouldn't be wasted having sex. You'd exercise, steam off, be cleaned with oils that were then scraped off, and massaged by slaves before ending up in a cold bath.

As for gay sex with the Romans; it's not as popular as people would have you believe, and certainly not the same as it is in today's society. It's simply that a blind eye of sorts was turned towards it. You wouldn't have a relationship with a man - you wouldn't live together and so on, and really wouldn't class yourself as more than friends. The majority of male relationships were seaked out because males were thought of as more intelligent than women (as they received a far better education) and so it was to have a intellectual, meaningful relationship. Women were still the main form of sexual intercourse. I mean, even the most famous gay couple of the ancient world, Achilles and Patroclus, were married and had children of their own.

As for older men>younger boys, yup, it happened. (The Greeks have some great child porn on their pots.) But, a lot of the time it wasn't even sexual, and if it was... then well, let me tell you it was weird. Men would compete with each other for the affections of younger boys to train them for married life to women: so yes, sometimes it was sexual, but hardly ever penetrative. Take this ritual for example:

If a man liked a younger boy, he would present him with a chicken. If the boy accepted and took the chicken, for that night, the older man was allowed to use parts of the boy's body (his armpit, crook of neck, between the knees/legs/elbows etc) to pleasure himself for that night.

So no, there was a social order on what was and wasn't right with sex, and they certainly did not have sex with everyone/everything.

Except for Zeus. Zeus really did.

KTL
To be honest I think Gay Men started in Roman, when they had the olypimcs ffs i can't spell, anyways it was during Wrestling, since they often wrestled in the nude. They tended to bond together afterwards/etc

I think Homosexuality did origionate in Roman times, i'm not going to say for fact it did though, I just remember watching it on a historical documented movie somewhere

You've proved yourself wrong in so many ways with this post:

Firstly, Olympia is not in Rome! The Olympic games existed long before Troy fell and Aeneas sailed to Italy to father the people who would found the city of Rome.

There have been many, many civilisations before the Romans, and many, many gays before them too. What's more, the Romans certainly didn't invent wrestling. Gays didn't just pop-up one day after some exercise.

And people wrestle today, some naked, some near-naked. Are you telling me that it turns them gay? No offence, but this is the worst theory I've heard since someone claimed that homosexuality started in concentration camps when two twins were seperated.

[Dare]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
Well there is a good reason.

take our pledge. "one nation under God"

And yet that's not what the original pledge said. The "under God" stuff wasn't added until 1954...it was part of the parcel along with "In God we Trust" and the ousting of "E Pluribus Unum" as our national motto in the 1950s.
Personally, I leave the "under God" part out, as I do not consider that part to be necessary to express my patriotism.

*applauds Neph for refreshing display of Classical knowledge*

You get the Golden Toga award!

[DarkElf]

Overreacting. There are so many posts about gay this and gay that on Lea. If they want to get married that's fine with me, and I do realize that most of the members on this board are homosexual or whatever, but for how long can we drag this on?

[Shadow]

lol we can discuss we dont have to break out in war everytime show that where adults hehe


an other thing witch is ridicelusy dumb is that if your gay in amarica your not alod to join the scouts....now if thats not "violation" for being gay i dont know what is

"Mind you am straight as a tree but i support gays"

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by shadow
l"Mind you am straight as a tree but i support gays"

Are you sure about that?