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Thread: Hate Crimes

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    Sonique Stormfury's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Hate Crimes

    "Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens. They inflict on victims incalculable physical and emotional damage and tear at the very fabric of free society. Crimes motivated by invidious hatred toward particular groups not only harm individual victims but send a powerful message of intolerance and discrimination to all members of the group to which the victim belongs. Hate crimes can and do intimidate and disrupt entire communities and vitiate the civility that is essential to healthy democratic processes. In a democratic society, citizens cannot be required to approve of the beliefs and practices of others, but must never commit criminal acts on account of them. Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause. Therefore, our laws must be strengthened to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the compelling importance of preventing their recurrence. Accordingly, the legislature finds and declares that hate crimes should be prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity." - The New York State Legislature.

    I was watching a programme the other day (American Justice with Bill Kurtis); and of course noticing how sad people really can be. Take the case of a young homosexual male. Who basically was a good kid and all. But society as a whole couldn't stand such a thing. Said societal homophobe, murders young homosexual male because Said societal homophobe feared he'd be raped by young homosexual male. He gets a non-premeditated murder charge. With'a circumstantial sentence. Was this really premeditated murder ? Or paranoia? Let's get one thing straight; Murder is Murder, period!

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    Well, I'm not going to endorse homosexuality, but no one, and I mean no one has the right to kill a homosexual just for being homosexual. Murder is murder is murder, as S0nique said.

    However, having not seen the program, I can only comment second-hand. If the "societal homophobe" was actually in the process of being raped by the homosexual, then he should be all means defend himself (what would you do in that situation, huh?). But, if it was only his biases (or paranoia) thinking, then he should be charged for premeditated murder, in my opinion.

    Look, he obviously thought through it enough to garner: [the guy] equals homosexual, which (in his mind) equals attempted rape, which (in his mind) equals "kill the guy before he rapes you." You can't go through that train of thought and not call it premeditated; again, in my opinion.

    Our society as a whole needs to come to grips with the definition of hate crimes. In this instance, the borderline between self-defense and murder lies on the edge of a knife. Again, if he was being assaulted, he should have defended himself -- but, is killing a human being actually necessary? Surely, if he was capable of killing the guy, he was capable of merely subduing him and taking the correct legal conduits.

    Arggh, I can't put my thoughts into words properly at the moment. If someone replies back, maybe I'll have a more clear line of reasoning, instead of just a disjointed ramble.

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    Legalising gay/lesbian partnerships in the UK is the best thing our government has done in recent years. As a gay, I am not exactly "worried" about being a victim of hate crime however it does play on my mind sometimes. I'm not open about it, in fact I'm quite withdrawn so nobody at work, none of my family and most of my friends know that I'm an uphill gardener as it were.

    However, I can't really buy that crap about straight people saying they're "worried" about being raped, even if that's the excuse they give in court. No, I believe the real reason is because most of the people who commit murders are total psychos, and thus they believe that being gay is wrong/weird etc, so they gotta kill off these people who are a "disgrace to society" in their words. Although quite honestly, they are the disgraces to society by being the ones who go round killing people for being proud of who they are.

    I've not heard that many hate crime stories myself, although I know it happens and I've heard a lot of hurtful comments on the subject. Things like the sudden use of the word gay as a slang term for "weird" or "lame" as well as the traditional plain insulting comments.

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    Originally posted by Tiikeri
    However, I can't really buy that crap about straight people saying they're "worried" about being raped, even if that's the excuse they give in court.
    Didn't you hear? All gays are sex-obsessed fiends with no morals when it comes to sex, and are all attracted to every single person of the same sex as them.

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    Of course it's premeditated murder. It would be regardless of whether he killed the guy because he was gay or for other reasons.

    Would there have been a different punishment if it had been found premeditated, Sonique?

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    You have your orders, soldier. Dare's Avatar
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    In a nutshell, typically premeditated murder carries more severe punishments than...say...manslaughter. Premeditated murder can and is oft considered capital/murder one and you can get life in prison or the death penalty.
    At least...I think...

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    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    its preety simple really...

    everyone need someone to blame and if you are a tiny bit diffrent its you...

    and if your even more diffrent its even worse "gay for example "

    and its horrebul...i cant say sweden really has this problem " as far as i know" i know a whos bi in school and befure i knew it i made this joke that "he was gay" and he said " yeah so what?" and then added he was bi....

    i laughed my shoes of becuse my "friendly ditch" just turned around and ***** slaped me i wish ppl could be more ...less caring...and look more at themselfs on what there doing....but as said the human need someone to blame for the suckness of the world our there lifes and some use the tactics of blaming an other and so they take a gay becuse they got supporters around the world....atleast thats my thougth....becuse if it was really becuse they didnt think it was "right" to be gay they wouldent kill becuse thats wrong...nore hate " you shall threat like you want to be threated yourself" god says (note i dont know the exakt words translating from swedish here and no am a none beliver)

    just leaving a message to all those who use god as excuse that he say its wrong...well the result of what your doing is exaktly that ....

  8. #8
    Sonique Stormfury's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Of course it's premeditated murder. It would be regardless of whether he killed the guy because he was gay or for other reasons.

    Would there have been a different punishment if it had been found premeditated, Sonique?
    The judge would've ruled murder in the first-degree. And more than likely a death penalty sentence. Because of the judicial system doesn't fully govern hate crimes, like the quote from the New York State Legislature says: "Current law does not adequately recognize the harm to public order and individual safety that hate crimes cause." So... you can't ensue "prosecuted and punished with appropriate severity." Quote unquote.

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    Originally posted by Katari
    Well, I'm not going to endorse homosexuality, but no one, and I mean no one has the right to kill a homosexual just for being homosexual. Murder is murder is murder, as S0nique said.
    Of course, by suggesting homosexuality is something wrong and problematic, you yourself are conducting your own form of intolerance.

    Not a hate crime because you have done nothing illegal. But you're certainly doing a good job of expressing hate.

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    you yourself are conducting your own form of intolerance
    Yay, thought police!

    If intolerance of intolerance is the new intolerance, I'll gladly be labeled as such.

    @Sonique: I'd say it should be handled on a case-by-case basis -- if there's evidence the would-be murderer did the crime out of a preconceived hate for a general class of people into which the victim fell, then there's a case for premeditated murder. If there's no such evidence, there's no premeditated murder.

    I don't see a compelling reason to codify a new slew of hate crime laws -- it just invites courtroom controversy (e.g., the charge is a "hate murder," while there is specious evidence that the "murderer" once said something bad about, say, gays (if the victim was gay)).

    The only substantial change to the legal system I'd suggest would be instead of codifying hate crimes, to elevate all murder charges to a mandatory death sentence if guilty.

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    Originally posted by Darkslash
    Yay, thought police!

    If intolerance of intolerance is the new intolerance, I'll gladly be labeled as such.

    Not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here...

    If she had said, "Not that I'm condoning being black" everyone would be up in arms. But if I dare get upset because she makes a statement like that about homosexuality, I get sarcasm in response?

    Why, do you condone bigotry?

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    Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
    Why, do you condone bigotry?
    Darkslash's point was that you can't tell someone what to think. If someone has racist thoughts, that's fine; if someone has homophobic thoughts, that's fine; however, the problem only arrises when those thoughts turn to works and actions which offend, harm and hurt others. No one has to be tolerate, they just should just keep their prejudices to their selves.

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    Yeah, Nephilim pretty much hit my point.

    Why aren't [sic] gays be equal to black people?
    In the eyes of the law, they are. Everyone is equal, in fact. To write laws specifying crimes against certain groups of people as "more heinous" destroys equality before the law and ensures injustice.

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    Senior Member Kovu The Lion's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Nephilim
    Didn't you hear? All gays are sex-obsessed fiends with no morals when it comes to sex, and are all attracted to every single person of the same sex as them.
    nice life

    Anywho,

    I agree with what people say, people can hate others, can want to kill them, can want to do whatever they want to the people they hate, but those are meirly thoughts, and we don't know what others are thinking, but when those thoughts become actions its when it does become a problem.

    Back to Neph:

    Most gay's are probably the most gentle people you'd find (y)

    also what you say Neph could probably ring true to about 10% of gay's around the world, but as you did say in the other post, Loud minorities stand out?

    Don't judge an entire flock of sheep by one stray

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    SpiritWolf77: Look, if disagreeing with other people's values and lifestyle choices is a sign of hatred, and a bad thing to do, then kill me now, please, because this world isn't worth living in anymore. Look, just because I feel moral qualms about what other people do doesn't mean I hate them or want to kill them. Did my post imply hatred to you, perhaps? It's not like I've never known any gay people before.

    In fact, I could well accuse you of hatred towards me, for accusing me of something I'm not guilty of. But I won't, since hatred is not something I practice. And, must we term all dislike as "hatred" in the first place?

    Oh, and my condoning or not condoning blacks is rather a moot point -- blacks are people, just as human as whites, Asians, or whatever ethnic/color group you want to bring up. Gays are people, too, but it is their lifestyle that makes them different -- people that hate gays do not do so because they are black or white, typically, but because they are homosexuel. There is a difference between those two forms of prejudice.

    And waddya mean, "If she said"? I think it says very clearly in my profile that I am male.

    People can think whatever they want, okay. Think what they want about me, think what they want about gays, about blacks, about whatever. But the law doesn't govern thoughts, only actions. And, while I do think there is a morality connected with thought life, I don't think it can be regulated by the government, the courts, or anyone but the individual doing the thinking.

    I have absolutely no hatred for any group. I just disagree with some groups on different points. Is that so bad? Have you never disagreed with anything before?

    Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion of gay=right or wrong. That's not the point of the thread, and I hope nobody gets too offended with me over my own viewpoints. I don't get mad at yours.

    Peace out.

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    Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
    nice life

    Anywho,

    I agree with what people say, people can hate others, can want to kill them, can want to do whatever they want to the people they hate, but those are meirly thoughts, and we don't know what others are thinking, but when those thoughts become actions its when it does become a problem.

    Back to Neph:

    Most gay's are probably the most gentle people you'd find (y)

    also what you say Neph could probably ring true to about 10% of gay's around the world, but as you did say in the other post, Loud minorities stand out?

    Don't judge an entire flock of sheep by one stray

    Kovu
    I'm sorry, but I stopped reading your post in favour of laughing terribly at you. =] Please learn sarcasm.

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    Being gay is no worse than being black; just people educe unubiquitous animadversions to anything they don't understand
    And being straight is no different than being black or gay or white. Kumbaya!

    Dividing people based on sexuality, race, or a multitude of other factors is a bad idea, which comes back to the point of this thread. Writing special "hate crime" laws will not solve a "police bias" or a prejudice on behalf of a segment of population.

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    I don't have much of an opinion on hate crime protection either way because I don't know much about it. I'm pretty sure Ohio, along with some other US states, doesn't have protect homosexual people from hate crimes. I also know that there was a protest of people trying to get hate crime protection for homosexual people repealed a few years ago when I was in West Virginia on a trip.



    Originally posted by Katari
    SpiritWolf77: Look, if disagreeing with other people's values and lifestyle choices is a sign of hatred, and a bad thing to do, then kill me now, please, because this world isn't worth living in anymore. Look, just because I feel moral qualms about what other people do doesn't mean I hate them or want to kill them. Did my post imply hatred to you, perhaps? It's not like I've never known any gay people before.

    In fact, I could well accuse you of hatred towards me, for accusing me of something I'm not guilty of. But I won't, since hatred is not something I practice. And, must we term all dislike as "hatred" in the first place?

    Oh, and my condoning or not condoning blacks is rather a moot point -- blacks are people, just as human as whites, Asians, or whatever ethnic/color group you want to bring up. Gays are people, too, but it is their lifestyle that makes them different -- people that hate gays do not do so because they are black or white, typically, but because they are homosexuel. There is a difference between those two forms of prejudice.

    And waddya mean, "If she said"? I think it says very clearly in my profile that I am male.

    People can think whatever they want, okay. Think what they want about me, think what they want about gays, about blacks, about whatever. But the law doesn't govern thoughts, only actions. And, while I do think there is a morality connected with thought life, I don't think it can be regulated by the government, the courts, or anyone but the individual doing the thinking.

    I have absolutely no hatred for any group. I just disagree with some groups on different points. Is that so bad? Have you never disagreed with anything before?

    Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a discussion of gay=right or wrong. That's not the point of the thread, and I hope nobody gets too offended with me over my own viewpoints. I don't get mad at yours.

    Peace out.
    I completely disagree with what you think about gay people, but don't feel like you're not allowed to have an opinion lest you offend someone. No one, in America at least, has the right to not be offended, nor do they have the right to take away your freedom of speech to keep others from getting upset. As long as you don't try to harrass me, take away my rights, or otherwise cause harm to me, I really don't care what you think about GLBT people. I would advise you to look beyond groups of people to see the individuals, but only you can do that.

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    The Alpha Wolf Returns Aurelian's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that most hatred against homosexuals stems from biblical religions. You should here some of the sermons I have heard in church! You'de think the world was going to end because to people of the same gender want to mary!

    I KNOW that most hatred against black people(AT least in America, though probably to a point elsewhere) steme from the days of black slavery. I do believe that a lot of the the black population get bad reputations for being aquanted with the hip-hop movement. People hear these people singing/rapping about sex(Both willing and non), violance, murder, ect. and degrading woman and such, and they immidiatly picture a black guy in a sports jersey, two baseball caps stcked on top of eachother or a bandana, and tons of "bling". Unfortunatly, you have a hew individuals giving the entire group a bad name.

    While the two different forms of hate come from different places, they seem the same to me.

    I'm suprised nobody mentioned hate crimes against the Jewish population. They tend to be one of the most targeted groups. After 9/11, Muslims and Middle-Easterners have it bad too.

    As has been said, everybody has the right to their opinion, to hate homosexuals, blacks, or whoever, if they want to. It's when opinions turn to actions that it becomes wrong.

    Actually, the homosexual part reminds me of a funny, but sad, story. Two gay partners moved into a high class neighborhod together. At first they kept quiet about themselves. The two young men were ideal neighbors, mowing all the lawns, shoveling snow off the sidewalks, walking people's dogs, ect.

    One day, after a few years, one of the young men was leaving for work. His partner walked him to the car, and kissed him. At the same time, one neighbor came outside to collect the morning paper. When she saw the two men kissing, she freaked. Next thing the men new, a petition was going around the neighborhood to force the men to move. The local judge rightly refused to even aknowledge the petition, but the men realized they were wanted. They refused to by pushed out, however, from then on, they had to deal with insults whenever they went out, vandalism to their property, rejection in public places, and general hatred. The two became reclusive, keeping to themselves, and staying indoors.

    One morning that winter, the nextdoor neighbor who saw the kissing noticed that the freshly fallen snow had not been shoveled from her driveway. getting angry, she through on her robe and went to the men's house. When one man answered the door, she started ranting about them being to different and not helping out around the neighborhood anymore. When politly asking the woman to leave did not work, the partner still inside called the police. The woman was arrested for criminal trespassing and disturbing the peace.

    I honestly don't remember where I heard this or if it is true or not.
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    Originally posted by Roquivo
    I'm suprised nobody mentioned hate crimes against the Jewish population. They tend to be one of the most targeted groups. After 9/11, Muslims and Middle-Easterners have it bad too.
    What hate crimes are against the Jews? I don't hear of any in the US, and the terrorism in Israel could be arguably more of a political conflict rather than a religious conflict.

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