Hunting? The Big Problem

[A-non-a-mus]

probably because you've never tried it... You don't know the satisfaction of realizing you've went through a lot to feed your family... to be the one to bring home food for the family... you get no sense of accomplishment coming home from a store I guarantee you that... however if you do the work yourself, it feels much better... then to know you're also helping nature out, and able to feel closer to nature... I dunno why you feel so against it? ... not thinning out the herds will destroy way more, as others have already said... you're stretching things a bit far on the 'killing things for fun' thing... did you know even fruits are living things? ... no body makes a move to stop others from eating fruits and vegetables ...

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
no body makes a move to stop others from eating fruits and vegetables ...

I'm a level five vegan; I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[Only-now]

I admit I didn't read all of this thread...but just to throw my two cents in...

1) I don't understand why there is time being spent justifying us hunting. It is true we don't NEED it for food...we have advanced enough not to have to hunt for survival. That doesn't mean that we no longer have the right to hunt, or that it is an evil practice. For one...I don't see anything wrong with responsible hunting. I don't see any civilized country that includes a population of people who hunt blindily allowing people to kill whatever they want, whenever they want. We have regulations on those things, hunters who hunt responsibly use the meat of the animal they kill, don't kill endangered animals or over-kill animals, and are also some of the most supportive of environmental protection, as well as having a very high level of respect for the animal they are hunting. If you don't want to hunt that is fine....and you aren't required to survive...but I have to completely disagree that hunting is a bad practice morally, or for the Earth. People have pointed out many instances in which hunting (whether by human or a wild animal) is beneficial to the population, and even if it is not creating something positive...it is not negative in any way. It does not hurt the Earth..as hunting (the practice, regardless of reasons) is a natural thing.

Secondly...until you hunt...or come into close contact with it, you will not know the feeling that comes from it. I haven't hunted, but I have come in contact with it, and I can tell you of the experience first hand. I have high respect for animals...but I also recognize our difference from them, and that we are not equal to them (not saying we can treat them however we want or something..but I recognize that humans are on a different level than animals). Anyways...I have never hunted...because I didn't want to. I am not so inclined to now...but I am leaning towards trying it out because of my experience. I can tell you, there is a special feeling that comes between men I believe (not that women can't feel it..but I just feel it is more common in men). I think it is a basic natural feeling...but it is one of accomplishment, tradition, strength, and pride. You feel a bond with your fellow man...maybe because of the past..in which we had to hunt for food...but my experience was helping a friend clean a deer he shot. First time for me seeing a dead deer...but I didn't feel sick, or appauled. You get a very deep feeling. When I was helping him lift it up to skin it..and you are using your body...your muscles...to lift it...something you hunted yourself. I respected the deer...and it's death...and we did what we did. It is hard to describe the feeling...but I know that if I felt that way just from helping...I can understand the passion towards actually hunting.

Adding to what A-non said....I believe that you actually have more respect for nature when you are part of its processes. When you are not only someone who cares for a living animal..or hikes and spends time outside...but when you are actually part of the hunting cycle. When you use your skill, your mind, your body...and you become part of what your ancestors were...what nature is around you. Hunting is a valid process..and the people who do it are often more in tune with nature than those who oppose it. If you are so ignoarant to think that hunters take a great joy simply in causing death...then you are sadly mistaken....nor do I believe you have had any experience in hunting...or probably any contact with hunters in order to make this claim. People enjoy hunting.....but they don't delite in causing the animal pain...nor do they simply want to kill it. If that was the case, you could just go out in your yard and shoot stray dogs...or kill deer and leave them in the woods. That isn't how it works. In fact...my friend who shot the deer felt a little bad..so he didn't watch it die....but that doesn't overpower the good parts of hunting..nor does it make it wrong. I can tell you...that feeling is more than what a lion feels when it runs down a zebra and rips out its neck. Please don't make statements about something you have no experience in.

~Kiva

[SpiritWolf77]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
Ick, then the disagreement is worse than I thought. People getting pleasure out of killing things is just sick. What's even more hard to believe is that you're happy with that!

Take for example the case of the woman from China (I think it was China anyway) who was filmed stroking a kitten, then stood on the kitten with a stiletto heel. She got pleasure from killing the animal; and you're saying that if she was then to use the animal, it would be acceptable!?!

Taking pleasure in killing things is wrong, I don't care what you say - that is wrong and anyone with any respect for other creatures would see that that is wrong!

There's a term for this sort of argumentation tactic but I can't remember the exact term at the moment. The last panel of this comic, however, sums it up nicely: http://www.comicspage.com/comicspage...&dir=/brewster

Nowhere did I say I think it's good for people to enjoy killing things. You're twisting my words around so it's easier to disagree with my stance. You're making my argument more black and white than it really is.

I said I think if someone enjoys hunting, and makes use of what they kill, then that's fine. Typically, hunters don't enjoy hunting because they like to kill things. They don't enjoy it because they like to watch animals suffer and die. They enjoy the process of tracking and the sense of accomplishment when they've actually managed to catch something. It draws on predatory instincts that are still hardwired into us.

There's a big difference between enjoying the process of the hunt and relishing in the death of a living thing.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by SpiritWolf77
There's a term for this sort of argumentation tactic but I can't remember the exact term at the moment.

Strawman argument might be what you're thinking of.

And my view on hunting is very similar to Kiva's (Only Now). On another note, I tend to like many Naative American's views on hunting and the cycle of nature as a whole. In that respect, I can see some similarities between Native American views on hunting and some modern hunter's views on hunting. But that's going off of hunters I know personally.

[SpiritWolf77]

Originally posted by lion_roog
Strawman argument might be what you're thinking of.

Yes, thanks, that's the correct term.

[Sombolia]

Personally, I find it so hypocritical that people could be so quick to condemn hunting, but are perfectly happy to go down to the store and buy a slab of meat. How is that any better? Because you didn't kill it? Somebody still did, and I can assure you that that animal suffered a MUCH worse fate in their lifetime than an animal who lived a normal life in a wild, and died a quick death.

I'm a vegetarian going vegan, but I'm not against hunting at all, if the animal is used resourcefully (meat, using the skin for material etc - not just stuffing the animal to put on display somewhere).

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion Sombolia: I have no problem with people getting meat from farms. That is necessary; hunting - as I've already said a lot before (and wonder how many more times I'll need to say it) - is not.

Does it not strike anyone else as completely wasteful to kill more animals when there is already more than enough food? Talking in MEDCs here, not LEDCs. So that takes the Inuit people, and some others out of the equation for the time being, since I'm talking about MEDCs, not LEDCs.

Hunting is necessary for some. What if you do not live close enough to a store; what if it's the only way you can support you and your family?

However, that's not really my point. I know that you have said this before, but I'm trying to address something else. Would you rather have an animal that lived a happy life die quickly; or torture an animal that has suffered his entire life to support you?

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
I'm not sure of the details; Nephilim. However, that is comparable to what people are saying - not being against killing for fun.

It really is beyond me how someone could think it is perfectly fine to kill things for fun.

Ahh, I understand where you're coming from now. If a person kills something for food with their own two hands, then goddamn that's terrible, but it's perfectly alright for you to sit back and let someone else do all the killing for you, and in a much more brutal way to boot. You are no longer treating animals as animals; merely slabs of food that you can pick up at the local store.

I can't think of the exact word to describe this, but "cowardly" seems to be a pretty good one.

If you think you have such great respect for animals (though I am starting to believe you're just trolling us) you are sadly mistake. Try respecting all animals, humans included.

[Only-now]

READ ENTIRE POST! (don't want comments on the first 2 lines)

Humans ARE superior animals. Being superior does not mean we are automatically allowed to be brutal and cruel. If this were the case, we wouldn't have laws against animal cruelty, nor would we be willing to send other HUMANS to jail for breaking those laws. Also, if you look at the majority of informed and intelligent human beings (such as those on this thread) they all know that there is a distinct difference between an animal and a human being. There is a reason we don't still live in the wild, and have to suffer in the environment etc. In fact, the sole topic of this thread proves what I am saying. We don't HAVE to hunt...we have advanced enough to not need this as a tool of survival anymore. Animals in the wild do not have this luxury. They also don;t know math or science, and they don't even understand how their bodies work...or even have a concept of "being" in the first place.

Now, obviously this will be taken by StL to mean that I think we should be allowed to do w/e we want to animals without having to answer to our conscience, and that we can just use and abuse anything because we are the mighty humans. To anyone else however, they will understand that I am pointing out the obvious difference between human beings and animals. Since most people do see this difference...then you can also point out the fact that most people think it is wrong to abuse animals, or be cruel to them. Obviously that must show something...because with our superiority comes compassion....a feeling that animals have yet to show to the extent humans do...for each other or for other species. We cannot be accused of not caring about animals when we have veternarians that go to school for 8 to 12 years, and build a career helping animals. When we have companies who make medicines to cure problems with animals that normally they would have to endure. They make these drugs because they want to make money of course...but that means someone has to buy them...and why would we? Because we care about animals, about helping them....we can love them, be compassionate etc.

It isn't arrogant to say that we are superior to animals....it is fact. We are on a different level than animals..one that is higher. We are more advanced etc...but being more advanced doesn't make us evil or wrong...or less caring for the animal life. I would prefer to argue it makes us MORE compassionate to animals. If we were still hunting, and had to for food...we wouldn't have time to make medicines to cure illnesses in dogs or cats....we wouldn't care about them in that sense because they would only be food to us then.

Stop trying to use facts, or logic to support your argument. You cannot because your argument is not based on either. It is simply based on your feelings towards hunting. You can't stand the thought of killing an animal...so you don't think it is right that anyone could. Well...arguments aren't won because you FEEL you are right. Time after time I have seen you talk and say the same things over and over...and everytime they just sound more ignorant than the last time I heard them. Read what people are saying...and if you are so inclined to follow the logic, you will see that your point of view on this is just empty.

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
; You're at it again! I did read the whole thing, but it was like a power trip! Just because humans are more intellectual than other species, doesn't make them any better!

Just want to input one thing, I did read Kiva's post but this stands out...

Yes, It actually does.

In a fight, it's a battle of wits and/or strength, the one who is stronger/smarter will win? obviously

a person who studies more for a test will do better than someone who didn't aye?

a person who's smarter than another will get a higher IQ(I think)

But anyways.. it is the superior that always win.(In 99% of most scenarios)

Kovu

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
But humans aren't respecting other animals. It's been said countless times, and even in this thread that "humans are superior to animals", or similar things. That's just arrogant.

When a deer puts a gun to my head, then we can decide who was and was not arrogant.

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
What does that have to do with being arrogant? I would love it if suddenly certain species evolved greatly overnight. Ahhh, yes.

Hmm, makes you wonder about the whole robot thing too. One day there will be a species much more intelligent than humans if we keep up our technological developments. Then humans may well be the ones who are hunted.

Reminds me of 'The Time Machine' ^_^ ...

I'm saying, when animals truly are superior than us, to the point that they are hunting us, then you can say who was being arrogant. Until then, we humans are still the superior.

[DarkElf]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
That has nothing to do with being arrogant. I could say "I'm the best mathematician in my college by far", and it could be true, but it's still being arrogant!

It's quite weird really; I'm an undiagnosed sufferer of inferiority complex, yet the thought of my species being superior doesn't really do anything for me. I guess I just wish everything could be equal and creatures would get the respect they deserve - not being killed for fun or anything like that.

*Erases the last part of his post, remembering what he was told on Wednesday!*

You should definitely re-read Only Now's last post. They seemed to sum it up pretty well.

I quote:

Originally posted by Only-now
It isn't arrogant to say that we are superior to animals....it is fact

[Only-now]

No...intelligence doesn't make someone automatically superior...but it is one area in which someone or something CAN be superior to another. I don't know how to better explain it to you...because in reality this is a very simple, inborn concept. We are superior to animals in most areas, not just intelligence...as intelligence can be broken up into many different areas that define us. Animals are superior to us in other ways...such as strength (most of the time), speed, etc etc. That of course, is looking at attributes in order to determine who is superior overall. Apparently you aren't really focusing on what "idea" of superior I am trying to put across. We are not EQUAL to animals...regardless of whether we are better or not...we are not on the same level as they are. Everything that makes us human sets us apart from animals...even our shortcomings to an animal, such as a lack of sharp teeth or claws etc. I tend to think, as most people do...that animals should live here on Earth with us in peace...but I also support my species...who happens to be in control of this planet. We are in charge because we are intelligent, and we used it to build cities, develop technology, and make life easier for ourselves. I see no animal on the planet that has come close to doing something this profound or different. We are the only being that has accomplished this to date...so I can't see how that does not somehow make us different than they are? I believe since we are "in charge", are so much more intelligent, and have these accomplishments...that generally we are superior to animals in the majority of ways. We live in a different level of existence than animals do...a higher level. We are above animals because we have increased all the base attributes to new levels that are not present in other creatures on this planet. Superiority can be looked at different ways...and it can apply to different areas. I do not like it however, when people try to put a human being and a dog on the same level....it just isn't true. That's why I find the term "animal RIGHTS" funny...as animals do not even have a concept of rights, or law, etc...nor do they have "rights" to begin with. We choose to support animals, we live in peace with them most of the time, we study them, and we enjoy them. The overall view towards animals by the human race is one of acceptance and compassion. I don't see how your claim that "SOME" people are bad....now degrades the entire human species. Just because one person robs a bank doesnt mean we all would. Not every dog would save a person from a burning building (that's why it is broadcasted when one does)...does that mean that since all dogs don't come to that level they shouldn't be treated with as much praise and love as a dog that did do it?

I doubt you have even met a hunter, or talked to one. You instantly say that vets are different than hunters..when both of them are human beings. I guess it would just boggle your mind if there was a veternarian that was also a hunter?

You ARE superior in the area of intelligence to others...but you can be inferior to others in other areas. That is called strengths and weaknesses. I suppose a good way to describe how we are superior to animals is that we are not even on the same level to compare one another. You can compare who writes better when both subjects know how to write, or are capable of learning it....but if you try to compare who writes better with a human and a dog...they are completely different...a dog CANNOT write, nor learn to...so the human being is automatically superior...not to mention this points to the obvious difference in us and them.

Well...if dogs eveolved over night and were just like us...well, then we wouldnt have an argument anymore...and they would be on our level...but then you wouldn't like them anymore either..because they would be like us.

Here are some definitions of superior to compare this with:
1. above the average in excellence, merit, intelligence, etc.: superior math students.
2. of higher grade or quality
3.showing a consciousness or feeling of being better than or above others

Here are some synonyms for superiority:
1) excellent, distinguished, unrivaled, first-rate, matchless

As far as I know, we are more intelligent than animals..we have a conscience and emotions that are more in depth than animals. We have skills and tools that animals do not possess. We are "unrivaled" and "matchless" in those areas and more.

~Kiva

[Forest Freak]

Originally posted by Only-now
I doubt you have even met a hunter, or talked to one. You instantly say that vets are different than hunters..when both of them are human beings. I guess it would just boggle your mind if there was a veternarian that was also a hunter?

LMAO! I know I said I was done posting here, but I just couldn't help myself after reading this. My uncle IS a vet and also goes HUNTING with us.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
If humans didn't have guns or similar hunting apparatus, and we were sent into the wild to live, we would be completely screwed. We simply can't hunt without artificial apparatus - we have poor teeth, poor claws, poor speed and poor strength.

I've proved that wrong... too late. With no hunt apparatus I have already, if only just too prove that falsehood as false. Remember a predator that lacks speed does not come to rely on speed to survive. We don't have speed, but we have a number of other strengths to greatly make up for it. You have to find that center ground yourself. We are able to adapt to nearly any situation. Something animals are incapable of. Humans 'can' and 'will' live whether or not we have any sort of hunting apparatus. If I could do it, many others can too. Thoughts that humans are too 'weak' to survive in nature, is a clear sign you don't know what we're capable of. Humans are much stronger than you give them credit for. With or without any gear we are still the most dangerous of all.

Vets who hunt are not hypocrites either... Hypocrites are those who speak against something and then do exactly what they say not to. Vets don't speak against hunting. In fact many times they support it. perhaps because they understand why we are hunters, or perhaps they realize what would happen if we all stopped... or what Only Now, Pnt and others have said previously. Instantly condemning something right off, as if judge, that is arrogance. Even with a Hippo in an area with a human, have you've ever tried putting a human in with a hippo? where does the thought come from that a human would just go into a place they knew they would die, like some animal would?

I understand where you are coming from, you like animals. Also I understand you saying if someone has a mountain of meat behind them, they should first use what they have before getting more. However, hunters are not those with a mountain of meat behind them, they hunt when they need to. Not once have you seen the good side of hunting, but you instead you describe hunters by looking at poachers.

[SpiritWolf77]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
[B]So you support them enjoying killing things, just you don't think "it's good". Interesting stance.

Wow, you really just epitomized that little comic I posted. I'm not going to bother repeating what I said. Go back, re-read my post, and we can continue this discussion when you stop twisting my words around to make your point easier to argue.

Also, if you look at the majority of informed and intelligent human beings (such as those on this thread) they all know that there is a distinct difference between an animal and a human being.

That's funny, Only-Now, because most intelligent, informed human beings will tell you that humans are primates, mammals, and therefore, animals.

Yes, there are distinct differences between all species of animals, and yes, we possess some rather unique abilities like verbal language (although I'm now sure how much study has been done into dolphin and whale communication at this point) and the ability to do more "advanced" thinking. But I think the confusion/debate here comes from people saying that because of these special abilities, we have more of a right to live. Which is absurd and egocentric.

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
Wow, what a hypocrite.

I think perhaps the problem is not that these people are hypocrites, but that they are more open-minded then you are and actually bothering to try to understand, rather than assuming "All hunters are evil mean terrible careless people!"

Otherwise, I'm just going to keep on calling you a hypocrite for condemning hunters for killing animals, yet still eating meat. Did you know it's not 100% -necessary- for all people to eat meat? Many people can survive perfectly well on a vegetarian diet. Chances are you're one of them. Since you're so obsessed with what's "necessary" I think I'm going to assume, that by your policies of moral standards, you are a cold heartless terrible animal murderer because you still eat meat even though it's not "necessary!"

[Kovu The Lion]

I would really agree with STL in this debate if he didn't state that all hunters were infact evil, though He may have stated something in the fact that perhaps that all /aren't/.

However, I've probably said this about a hundred times now, I respect others opinions upon hunting, but when I see someone hunting Deers or Birds I could really care less, but when I do come across an african hunting article where they do infact kill Lions/Tigers/antelope whatever they decide their game of the day is. I do infact feel bad for the animals because well, They're actually more of animals I can relate to, I guess it's an opinion because I favor Lions over a Deer perhaps?

Just saying hunters in general are evil and don't know anything about how an animal feels, I think it's a little overboard to say such, most hunter's do infact try to hunt and kill with responsiblity, Using one shot and killing them instantly so they don't feel any pain, however they may sense fear before hand but that's just normal and you can't fix that from happening. I've been with people hunting, and some are just wild about it but putting their excitement in a form of something you like to do is just about the same,

When a hunter kills a game, and yells "Yeeehawww!!" for the win, it's just the same pretty much as you playing football and making a touchdown, you'll get excited for something you've done right, Though infact it may be different because you do infact kill something, but sadly thus is the way of life is it not?

Hunting is just for some people as soccer is for another, you either like it or you don't :s

But I do find hunting to be quite.. Weird on my part, mostly because I'm not sure how people can get a thrill out of killing something.. Mostly I'd feel so guilty for taking anothers lives as I feel that animals and Humans are infact equal, We just have ups and downs on our superior and inferior sides (Such as man has the ability to think, lions have the ability to hunt well)

So if I killed an animal, I'd say infact I just killed a human, just it doesnt look like one but in my view point, it's the same thing eh *Shrugs*

I'm on STL's side, and Kiva's on this at the same time, It's hard to choose a side pretty much because each argument(Debator) actually has good points and bad points, but none actually agree with what I say entirely so therefore I guess I'm on my own for this I think.. :x

..yeah x)

Kovu

[Pnt]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
Yay, someone who agrees!

And, meat is a necessary part of the diet. You can get ill if you don't get the nutrients and such found in meat. Sure, you could eat tons of soya and similar things in an attempt to rectify this, but it's really not practical. Come to think of it, I don't get a huge choice what to eat anyway. I get what is served up on my plate, and I'm grateful for it.

Practical doesn't equal necessary. Think of all those poor animals that died because you won't eat beans instead of animals. Then again, think of all those poor beans that would die because you chose to save those animals. Funny thing about nature, there's not many things, with the exception of some plants, that don't kill other things for food.

I agree with Only-Now on the matter of necessity. Hunting may not be necessary, but that doesn't make it immoral.