Evolution?

[SpiritWolf77]

Hey guys, I know I don't post on this forum much, and almost every time I do, it's to jump into some debate. I bet you guys all think I'm overly argumentative and I apologize for that. I swear I'm a nice amicable person most of the time, I just really enjoy debate. It's a hobby of mine. And here I go again with more debate topics. But I was bored, what can I say?

Anyway, I'm curious about the opinions people here have on evolution? I personally see it as a well-established and well-supported scientific theory but I know many people still disagree. If you're up for it, I'd love a little banter about the subject. I like learning more about reasons why people don't agree with it and I really enjoy offering information about it to people who may not know as much about the subject, since evolutionary study and debate is sort of a side hobby of mine.

So, what are your views?

[SpiritWolf77]

Hmm, no one?

[Azerane]

I thought you brought up a good topic but I just personally couldn't think of anything remarkably in-depth to say

Though I will say now, that as a christian I'm often told that you shouldn't really believe in evolution... I think that silly, hehe. Ok, God created the earth in 6 days and all that and he created all the animals and stars and humans. Though it does not really specify how long this took and it could refer to evolution. I mean, I for one can't not believe that evolution occured, as you said, the scientific evidence really is there and as a biology and conservation student I do learn a bit about it in some of my classes. And I do find evolution quite fascinating along with the role of natural selection and all that.

So yes, evolution happened.

[SpiritWolf77]

*nods* I agree. I am an atheist, but I feel if there was a God, he would have designed a system to make sure all of his creatures were able to progress and survive. I see evolution as that system.

[Azerane]

ahhh... *nods* I see. Another thing I think, if that everywhere you look, when you look at animals and things in nature, you notice that most animals have a specialistion for aquiring food or surviving in their habitat, that is also evolution and there's no ignoring that. If animals hadn't evolved in these ways then they would have died.

By the way, were you reffering to evolution of the human race, as I know that's generally the big issue, or just evolution in general?

[King Simba]

Originally posted by Azerane
Ok, God created the earth in 6 days and all that and he created all the animals and stars and humans. Though it does not really specify how long this took and it could refer to evolution.

Yeah, I got taught about that during Religious Education a few years ago. I did not really believe that fact to the full effect when I got taught it because I didn't see how all of that could've happened in just 6 days. I guess I found it to be kinda weird at the time and I found it hard to understand... I dunno.

I'm kind of half and half when it comes to these beliefs... there's a chance all of that could have happened though since there is obviously no logical fact that it didn't happen. Though I do think it does refer to the facts of evolution and how it happened, because it's specifying the growth of the world and how it all started. If this theory is true, it's pretty much telling us that evolution occured when the Earth was created, so I do think evolution happened to some extent. Come on... let's face it, if it didn't, why would we be here?

That's just my views on it anyway.

Originally posted by Azerane
ahhh... *nods* I see. Another thing I think, if that everywhere you look, when you look at animals and things in nature, you notice that most animals have a specialistion for aquiring food or surviving in their habitat, that is also evolution and there's no ignoring that. If animals hadn't evolved in these ways then they would have died.

Yeah, that is true.

[Azerane]

Originally posted by King Simba
Yeah, I got taught about that during Religious Education a few years ago. I did not really believe that fact to the full effect when I got taught it because I didn't see how all of that could've happened in just 6 days. I guess I found it to be kinda weird at the time and I found it hard to understand... I dunno.

See that's the thing with the Bible and christianity is that you're not supposed to take it literally or word for word (I don't mean to purposly start talking about all this when we're on about evolution but it kinda pops up). It's something that you have to interpret which is one of the reasons why, in my opinion, there's so many different 'types' of christians, like lutherans and catholics and anglicans and all that. I'm doubtful that evolution, as in creation would have happened in 6 'real' days, especially when you consider that fossil records of evolutions reach back hundreds of millions of years. It's just doesn't line up (I could get into another rant about how that doesn't really line up with christianity stuff but I won't )

But then of course, when you really do think back to the beggining of evolution, and I mean... WAY back.. technically everything evolved from almost one thing, or at least probably one type of thing, you know the whole slime crawling outta the sea type theory

[LunarCat]

I am a Christian, but I also believe in evolution. like Azzy, i don't really have an i depth conversation topic to go in to

[Darkslash]

On a small scale, evolution happens, and is in fact provable, but the grand theory of one common ancestor is far more difficult to prove, and IMO, did not happen.

[Only-now]

I used to believe fully in evolution..but after some talks with my father..I feel a bit differently. I am not Christian...and you must first realize that beleiving that evolution did not happen does not immediately mean you think a God created everything. It could be something that we have not discoved yet.

Although many sources would lead you to believe that they have much proof of evolution, the truth is that there really isn't much. There isn't enough to say it happened..and there are certain things against it. Many of the pictures and things learned in school were actually lies and falsifications. There have been many fossils that have been faked to look as if they were a missing link, and even in the scientific community...people are shunned and even have their careers ruined because they question evolution.

Everyone must also realize that evoltion and adaptation are two different things. Evolution refers to one species changing into a completely new one..NOT that animals adapt to their environments. That is just where it starts and is supposed to continue...but in fact animals will switch back and forth between desirable traits. If evolution did occur, you would expect to find many of the fossils of the species' that existed in between the first life and all the various ones we have today..yet that is NOT the case. There are hardly any, IF any that show this. Finally...geological records show that during the course of the Earth...we went from no life...to every species on earth at once..it wasn't gradual.

Now..as I said..I'm not Christian..and I am not stating this to say that God created everything. Disproving something doesn't automatically prove the other side. I tend to not know where to stand on this..as there is SOME evidence..and some logical-sense to evolution...yet there are also things that are lacking..and proof against it.

What I am saying is do not take evolution as a proven fact..or as one that is supported as well as people make it out to be. It is actually still very much a mystery of how we got here..and there is a possibily it could have been evolution, God, or something we haven't discovered yet.

~Kiva

[LunarCat]

^ i thought evolution was based on adaptation. the species' genes somehow, over a long period of time, changed their make-up to benefit their position in the world/habitat. Evolution doesn't happen with a single mutation and everything else follows suit.

[Darkslash]

Originally posted by Lunarcat
^ i thought evolution was based on adaptation. the species' genes somehow, over a long period of time, changed their make-up to benefit their position in the world/habitat. Evolution doesn't happen with a single mutation and everything else follows suit.

Adaptation is a provable fact, the "small-scale" evolution I mentioned above.

"Macro-Evolution," the wholescale transformation from one species to another, is another story.

[HasiraKali]

Oh goodness... I really shouldn't be in this topic. I believe in evolution. I get into arguements with people over it all the time, especially my dad. People are undereducated when it comes to evolution, so they tend to make assumptions about what it means. Adaptation can lead to evolution but it doesn't have to. There are fossils that show the gradual shift from one form to another, horses for example. There are also cetacean fossils that show this steady change. The reason that it appears that there was no life and then, boom, every species is because the first life forms were single celled and had a slimmer chance of becoming fossilized. Finally, the chance than an organism will die in a situation favourable to fossilization is unlikely. We're lucky we have the fossils that we do have.

Now, having said that, I will leave this thread before I get in trouble.

[Kapasa]

I used to be completly in agreement with evolution due to the overwhelming evidence for it. It made sense every living thing fits in perfectabely.

But then I relized a small fraction of the beauty of life and how complex it is. And I had a thought is it possible for this drangon fly's wing to be made by pure chance? Then I thought umm...well let me put it this way, I thought it cant be, its impossible. Then my fragile/ non- existent belief in a God suddenly changed. If this was made by chance, were the dimesions in this universe created buy chance to support life, the structure of an atom chance? There are so many things I could put here that dont add up for me at least, in a world without a God.

And steadidly I relized just how mind blowing this thought was. Hold on a sec. the universe created by chance, this dragon fly made by chance, myself existing chance?, the forces of gravity not too strong not too weak to support life.

I struggled to argue with the complexitity and beauty of a simple drangon fly to not be made by a God, let alone everything else that makes this universe so finely tuned to support life.

And so my belief in a God came about, with evolution the method he/she/it? used to create the dragon fly and all other life forms.

[Nephilim]

Do they teach evolution in America?

[Dyani]

My belief is that everyone is heading in the same direction, just from different angles and different types of walks. I'm not religious, just vaguely open-minded

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Do they teach evolution in America?

Yes they do, Usually in Science classes (Duh)

8th grade, or 7th grade Sciences, again in Biology, and once more in Earth Science (But not a lot of concepts)

I've nothing really else to say in this thread as I pretty much believe that we're here from the begining, Lets just move on and forget it XD (though its good to know where you come from, I fear that to much knowledge will be the end of mankind as we know it)

Kovu

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
Yes they do, Usually in Science classes (Duh)

Interesting. I'd heard that they didn't in all schools.

[Melody of Scar]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Interesting. I'd heard that they didn't in all schools.

Some of the schools in the southern parts of the nation teach creationism, but a majority of the schools ( at least that I know of ) teach evolution.

Some teach both, somehow.

[Only-now]

I sort of believe both should be taught..as both can be looked at as theories and to a point...religions.

I am going to post a link to some scientific facts that go AGAINST what evolution believes. I am not posting this as proof...but simply as facts to support my claim that the Cambrain Explosion, lack of transitional fossils etc is actually a valid argument against evolution.

http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/reasons.html

To give a breif summary for those who do not want to read it all:

Cambrian Explosion: This a period in Earth's history in which ALL of the 26 phyla we now have suddenly appeared at once. During the Precambrian period, there was only single-celled organisms, but when the Cambrian Explosion occuerd we had all the phyla appear simultaneously..and they haven't changed at all in comparison to today.

Fossil Record: The fossil record of many animals and plants shows that in the various layers of Earth's surface..the organisms HAVE NOT become more complex over time. Examples are listed in the linked site...but it states that if you take a fossil from (for a number) 10 million years ago..and compare it to a newer layer of 7 million years ago (of the same creature) you won't see a change in complexity with the newer fossil being more complex than the older one.

Transitional Fossils: Darwin himself said that this was the biggest argument against his theory..and to this day still is. There is a MAJOR lack of any fossils that show the change between not only human and whatever our previous form was...but also between other animals. It should also be noted that macro and micro evolution are NOT the same thing..and that small adaptations are not proof of evolution on a macro-scale. Here is a quote written by a paleontologist in a book supporting evolution. He wrote this in reply to a reader's comment on why he hadn't provided any transitional fossils: ?I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them ?. I will lay it on the line ? there is not one fossil which one could make a watertight argument.?

The link also uses genetics, physics, and astronomy to shoe evidence that evolution is not as acceptable as it is made to seem.

That facts are this: Evolution and Creationism have not been proven or disproven. Evolution DOES NOT have ANY substantial proof behind it to make it anymore plausible than Creationism. This fact does not PROVE that God created anything, etc...it only shows that evolution should NOT be accepted as fact..nor should it be claimed to be so supported. Many lies and hoaxs have been used to support Evolution in the form of illustrations, fake fossils, and random wild assumptions. If you look at the facts, you will see that Evolution is JUST a theory..and has very little proof at all. In the end...this is all more complex than once thought. If you care to argue about this..than make sure you keep an open mind..and I hope I don't here any of the claims that anyone who disagrees with evolution doesn't understand science...or must be a fundamentalist religious person.

~Kiva