Debate: Gay Marriages

[Timon]

Originally posted by Katse
I have nothing against gays, but I'll admit there is a feeling real, real, /real/ deep down inside of me that tells me it's just... not right. I think it's that kind of animal instinct or something. I don't know. However, I almost always don't let that hinder my perception of any homosexuals I meet.

I agree with that completely.

I've met many gay people in my life, and although I'm not friends with any, just aquantences, I don't have a problem with it. But I don't know, no matter how my head tells me that it doesn't matter what they do, deep down I feel that it just isn't natural, God didn't intent it to be that way. I was brought up a strict Catholic, so maybe thats why I feel this way, I really can't describe it. But I would never judge a person because of their sexual preferance, I would judge them as a person, just the same as I judge everyone else.

Gay marriage doesn't bother me, it's not like it effects my life so I don't see why they shouldn't.

The only thing that I do dislike about some homosexuals is when they are so in your face about it, and feel the need to mention their sexuality to you in every other sentence. That irritates me. You don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

[Juniper]

Originally posted by Timon
\You don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

Now, you see, I disagree with that. Yes, I'm annoyed by the homosexual people that flaunt it, but I'm pretty sure the average teenager flaunts their sexuality just as much. I went to a large mall a few days ago, I had to have seen at least 50-75 teenage males with t-shirts that have obscene, sexually oriented material on the shirt, as well as an outline of a naked woman, two people having sex, or what have you; they are almost always heterosexual in nature. I probably saw 10 heterosexual couples making out in public, and quite a few other blatanly heterosexual actions. Does that make it "Wrong?" Not really my place to decide, but I do think the average young adult flaunts their sexuality quite a bit.

[Dyani]

ah, but its society that can make them that way. its not like teens have much of a choice when its up in ur face. Sex is so overrated. its a natural occurance that people try to make even more exciting so that people who don't do it, or do 'enough' of it feel inferior. Yeash..

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
isn't that in 1st corinthians 6? or 5? Well I think they showed to much affection or what not and were condemned.. or something, But yeah, No christian should judge others, since it says so in the bible, Only god/Chris jesus, can do so :s

~KtL

the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?... that's in genesis chapter 19...

Originally posted by Nephilim
Oh yes, that's a fantasic story! I mean, it promotes rape and abuse of women in such a way that is sickening, and also the objectification of them.

It doesn't promote any of that... those cities were both destroyed because of sins like that... I'm not sure what version of the story you've read, but try reading genesis chapter 19, in a bible, that's where the true story of Sodom and Gomorrah is located

[i]At the end of a day it was just written by a misogynist, at the time when male/male relationships were trying to be destroyed by the Jews etc.[/B]

Jews weren't even called 'Jews' back then... this was back when 'Abraham' was living.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
It doesn't promote any of that... those cities were both destroyed because of sins like that... I'm not sure what version of the story you've read, but try reading genesis chapter 19, in a bible, that's where the true story of Sodom and Gomorrah is located



Jews weren't even called 'Jews' back then... this was back when 'Abraham' was living.

I know the Bible well enough, thank you.

"Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them."

And similarly, from Judges:

"Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing.

But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night."

So yes, pretty much it runs along the line of "please don't have gay sex, but please, feel free to rape my daughters."

The fact that they weren't called Jews does not change my point.

[A-non-a-mus]

yes, but in both situations they refused the daughter(s)

in judges, they had raped and killed his concubine, ... and this was the result of that:

judges 20:8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.

12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."

46 On that day twenty-five thousand Benjamite swordsmen fell, all of them valiant fighters. 47 But six hundred men turned and fled into the desert to the rock of Rimmon, where they stayed four months. 48 The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire.

so it still as I have said, does not support acts like those...

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Timon
don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

Hmm, Ever been to a Public High School?

I hear all the time about how people want to get wasted and have sex with their girl friends, or how great a "mater" she is, or how good she is in the bed, or the opposite way around... But straight's don't ever boast do they *raises brow* :s

[Dyani]

KTL - I agree, yeash it gets on your nerves! "Yeah dude, I like totally screwed her" or some other crude language used. Its pretty pathetic really...

[Darkslash]

Originally posted by Xanahti
I find it akward that there's even a discussion going on in our modern society, where everybody is supposed to be threated [sic] like equals.

Awkward that we discuss issues? Why? Whether or not you agree or even like another's opinion, they remain at the end of the day valuable opinion, the product of thought on behalf of another.

Dismissing one side of an argument because you believe it should "not even be discussed" is hypocrisy equitable with the double-standard I would assume you believe marriage is held to.

Yes, we discuss because there will be consequences whatever the outcome of an issue will be: it's public policy. Who will pay, and who will gain, from a decision? It isn't and shouldn't be an arbitrary process. Decisions in "our modern society" demand discussion.

[Xanahti]

I was talking about the discussion in general, not only Lea. Most people agree with that there should not be any discriminations of minorites like black people and women, but when it comes to homosexuals, it's perfectly alright.
I mean would you ever start a thread discussing whetever or not black people should be allowed to ride the same buses as white people? I bet you wouldn't, you just don't do that, even if it's just an opinion it would not be accepted by the forum(depends on what kind of forum though)
I think homosexuals should be threated with the same respect.

I'm perfectly aware of that rasism and nazism exists, and that people are threated differently because of the color of their skin, but like only 200 years ago black people were slaves, and they're certainly not that now. Gay couples have never been fully accepted, and I know that they're threated so much better nowadays, but when the church keeps on discriminating them, I just don't see how we will ever come close to having a equal world.

our world has changed so much, and at the same time, not at all. it's frustrating to know that people are threated differently because of their sexuality when we've come so far in respecting and accepting other races and religions. Not allowing gay marriage just seem very obsolete.

It's kind of funny how everything else in the bible can be adjusted after the time we live in, but when it's homosexuality, wow, God must've written that in capitals with a lot of !!1!1's after.


So my point is there shouldn't HAVE to be a discussion about it.

[Xinithian]

^I totally agree with what you said, well done. Also, I don't see why most Christians are so upset with homosexuality when Jesus never made a comment about homosexuality. The only two people that I can remember referring to homosexuality was Moses (who was part of the Old Testament, which doesn't give people salvation), and Paul (who never actually knew Jesus and wasn't one of his disciples). I could see why they would hate homosexuality if Jesus had specifically said that it was a sin, but he didn't.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Xinithian
^I totally agree with what you said, well done. Also, I don't see why most Christians are so upset with homosexuality when Jesus never made a comment about homosexuality. The only two people that I can remember referring to homosexuality was Moses (who was part of the Old Testament, which doesn't give people salvation), and Paul (who never actually knew Jesus and wasn't one of his disciples). I could see why they would hate homosexuality if Jesus had specifically said that it was a sin, but he didn't.

Agreed.

[Darkslash]

So my point is there shouldn't HAVE to be a discussion about it.

Even if the discussion were to bring you to a greater understanding about the issue, it wasn't worth having?

One can't expect one's point of view to be accepted by all blindly and silently -- isn't that part of the inference the cartoon above applies to Christianity (hypocrisy)?

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Dyani
Sex is so overrated.

Not to stray too far off topic or disrespect you but... LOL!

I still ponder though... how long it'll take to consummate lawfully homosexual wedlock... probably until separation of church and state . . . ?

[Muruwa]

I personally don't approve of homosexuality, I just don't think its right/natural, though I don't judge a person based upon their sexual preferences. Can't say I know any gay people on a personal level, but I've seen and briefly met some I'm sure. And about religion accepting it, why should they have to? If the bible is against it and they follow the bible than why should they change their beliefs because a majority tells them that they have to approve? Isn't this the kind of thinking you're trying to fight against? I know, this sort of thing could easily be applied to racism (or other various forms of discrimination), but if you're not actively trying to take away a person's natural rights, why should you have to approve of what they're doing? In the end I suppose it's about choice, if that's the way you choose to live than that's how you're going to live whether people approve of it or not (and you're not doing anything illegal of course).
But perhaps the issue is about limits. If gay people are allowed to get married because they truly love each other, can the same idea be used with polygamy? The line needs to be drawn somewhere and that I think is the true debate.
By the way (someone correct me if I'm wrong) California actually voted against having gay marriage leaglized, but San Francisco decided it didn't care and went ahead to perform gay marriages. If I remember correctly, those marriages were made void weren't they?

[Son-Goku]

First of all, it's none of my business, nor anyone elses to say who you'd love and thus being homosexual. I agree with the quote "If any of you is without sin, let him cast the first stone".

And for the part that annoys me. Hope anyone doesn't get this personally, but... what's the big deal about mariage anyway? I mean, sure, say you legally get maried, but the church will never allow it. What then?. I know that at some point in my life i will marry a girl ( or not... lol XD ). How will that make me different in the face of law from someone who's homosexual and got legally maried? So yeah, i had that mariage thing in churh. Boo-hoo, it was boring anyway

There will always be people who disagree, always were, always will be. And like i said, i'm pro for legally marriage but not to be oficiated in a church.
And i know some of you guys gave out a reasonable amount of info regarding this matter and at some point i read something about adopting. Sure, they have this right, everyone does; if you can afford and want to adopt a child, then by all means, do it; you're a hero in eyes, but i simply can't imagine what the kid will think about at some point of his/her life.. where's "mom" or "dad"? Now i'm phychologist but i say that will leave some pretty deep emotional scars.
I've been raised without my dad since 11 so i know what it feels like, even if i don't like to admit it,... it's not the same.
And here we have the same dilema in the case of abortion... are you or anyone else the best person to decide what's good and wrong for the kid? I honestly don't know on that one. I'm still arguing with myself wether that's good or bad.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Xanahti
I was talking about the discussion in general, not only Lea. Most people agree with that there should not be any discriminations of minorites like black people and women, but when it comes to homosexuals, it's perfectly alright.
I mean would you ever start a thread discussing whetever or not black people should be allowed to ride the same buses as white people? I bet you wouldn't, you just don't do that, even if it's just an opinion it would not be accepted by the forum(depends on what kind of forum though)
I think homosexuals should be threated with the same respect.

we don't post any thread about white and blacks in the same bus because the answer is an obvious 'yes' of course that'd be allow... likewise, we never make a thread about weither or not gays should right in the same bus because it too would be another obvious 'yes they should be allowed to. Christians don't dislike gays alright, we dislike 'sin' and in the bible it does say multiple times 'homosexuality' is counted as a sin. However that doesn't mean the one doing the sin should be held for this, no, for Jesus is able to forgive ALL sins, therefore, we should too. Also, as stated before, we arn't the judges.

Originally posted by Xanahti
I'm perfectly aware of that rasism and nazism exists, and that people are threated differently because of the color of their skin, but like only 200 years ago black people were slaves, and they're certainly not that now. Gay couples have never been fully accepted, and I know that they're threated so much better nowadays, but when the church keeps on discriminating them, I just don't see how we will ever come close to having a equal world.

an equil world will never exist... until this one comes to an end. A new heaven and a new earth will be made, where "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." ~rev 21:4 only at that appointed time will there exist a equal world...

and the church isn't disccriminating against them either... they are allowed in, all are accepted at a true church, they just won't marry a gay couple, for it is said in the bible, that it is wrong, therefore they cannot defile the sancuary of God by accepting sin as good. If they want to be married, go ahead, just not in a church nor by a christian, otherwise the words from the preacher's mouth will not be valid anyways. Christians may acknowledge there are homosexuals, and they will allow them into the church, however, they cannot bend over backwards and change the words of the bible because those whom are not even christians demand to.

Revelations 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

Originally posted by Xanahti
our world has changed so much, and at the same time, not at all. it's frustrating to know that people are threated differently because of their sexuality when we've come so far in respecting and accepting other races and religions. Not allowing gay marriage just seem very obsolete.

it goes far back... and so does christianity... so does homosexuality... so do many things... if one thing is obsolete, shouldn't the rest be?

Originally posted by Xanahti
It's kind of funny how everything else in the bible can be adjusted after the time we live in, but when it's homosexuality, wow, God must've written that in capitals with a lot of !!1!1's after.

what is this 'everything else' that has been adjusted?
nothing in the bible can be adjusted... refer to the verse stated above... nothing in the bible should ever be adjusted.

[Ashara]

Where'd you get the idea that ALL Christians are homophobes? I'm a very strong Christian, and I have plenty of gay friends. I love the people, I just don't like what they do. And where do you get the idea of being gay as natural? There are two genders for a reason, ya know.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Son-Goku
where's "mom" or "dad"? Now i'm phychologist but i say that will leave some pretty deep emotional scars.
I've been raised without my dad since 11 so i know what it feels like, even if i don't like to admit it,... it's not the same.
And here we have the same dilema in the case of abortion... are you or anyone else the best person to decide what's good and wrong for the kid? I honestly don't know on that one. I'm still arguing with myself wether that's good or bad.

I assume you meant you're "not" a psychologist, so I'll try and go over this from a psychological point of view.

First of all, mentally being raised by just your mother/just your father/two fathers/adopted parents and so on has no no effect on children what so ever. Rather, the problem arrises with attachments. Now, attachment is learnt through classical or operant conditioning from a very early age, and that's how you become attached to your primary care giver. For example (classical conditioning) a child is hungry, it is pleased when it recieves foot and so associates the feeling with the food-giver. Basically, attachment through reward. But anyway.

Problems arrise through deprivation (broken attachments) which is basically what you're saying was the problem of you not growing up with your father, I would imagine. Privation, too (never having an attachment in the first place) causes problems.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that's it's not who raises you, but the quality of the care.

... or something. It's late.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Ashara
Where'd you get the idea that ALL Christians are homophobes? I'm a very strong Christian, and I have plenty of gay friends. I love the people, I just don't like what they do. And where do you get the idea of being gay as natural? There are two genders for a reason, ya know.

Hardly anything we do isn't natural. Medicine is unnatural. Is it wrong to take medicine, because it's not natural? Why would you consider something wrong, just because it's not natural (although in some rare cases there are gay animals)?

Also, if you're arguing that there are two genders for a reason, is protected sex wrong? Isn't it wrong to have protected sex to avoid pregnancy? 'Cause pregnancy is part of the natural process .

Also, I find it odd how people say, "I like gay people", yet they don't want them to get married. If you liked them, why would you withdraw the right to get married? If you liked somebody, wouldn't you want to see them happy, and allow them to live a better life? It would be like if I said, "I like Christians", yet voted for a law that made it illegal to build churches in my country. If I like Christians, I would vote against a law like that.