The Creation - Work of God or Work of Science?

[Neola]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Hmm, interestingly, in the Qu'ran, the creation story says that the earth was created over seven periods of time, but tends to be translated as days. Which is unfortunately... but yeah, have to be careful with the Bible, because of so many years of mistranslations and interpretations taken as truth. Plus, the Bible was written by man so long ago, when we did not understand all we do now (i.e.--the Earth is not the centre of the universe) so the stories are very simple, passed down myths at the end of the day-- not kidding either, I can relate so many Bible stories to ancient Greek literature.

That's what I mean, I believe the Bible is actually full of metaphors (day-period of time). And I also believe it was written by man...not by God, so there are loads of things we don't understand today (like what you said before)

Oh, and the Adam and Eve idea? Just think of all the incest that brings up.

The Bible does not say that God didn't create any other humans after Adam and Eve, does it?

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Neola
The Bible does not say that God didn't create any other humans after Adam and Eve, does it?

Well, it says that Adam was the first to be created in God's image, but after a while in the garden of Eden he became lonely, so Eve was created from his rib. All humans were also meant to live in Eden and Eden alone forever, but then the original sin was undergone, and so all were cast out... all two of them. So, it quite clearly puts the idea across that they were the only two- he also tells them to "be fruitful and multiply in number," or something that effect.

[Neola]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Well, it says that Adam was the first to be created in God's image, but after a while in the garden of Eden he became lonely, so Eve was created from his rib. All humans were also meant to live in Eden and Eden alone forever, but then the original sin was undergone, and so all were cast out... all two of them. So, it quite clearly puts the idea across that they were the only two- he also tells them to "be fruitful and multiply in number," or something that effect.

Well, after they got children, God just took another of Adam's ribs and, well...formed another woman and so on? I don't believe it was like that though :S
Or...my other theory...at that time incest was nothing abnormal - God just "invented" those physical damages after there were enough humans for everyone...

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Neola
Well, after they got children, God just took another of Adam's ribs and, well...formed another woman and so on? I don't believe it was like that though :S
Or...my other theory...at that time incest was nothing abnormal - God just "invented" those physical damages after there were enough humans for everyone...

Fair enough. Seeing as people did live ridiculously long in the first few books- about 900 years tops, right? Heh, I always figured if such incest were to occur, perhaps humans today are a lot more 'deformed' than they were at the time of ex nihilo creation. (Anyway, you can be related in up to five ways to anyone of the same culture and race as you, hehe.) So if the Bible's true, incest did not do us much harm for all we know. Despite the fact that it clearly forbids it later...

Out of question, are you a Christian yourself?

[Neola]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Fair enough. Seeing as people did live ridiculously long in the first few books- about 900 years tops, right? Heh, I always figured if such incest were to occur, perhaps humans today are a lot more 'deformed' than they were at the time of ex nihilo creation. (Anyway, you can be related in up to five ways to anyone of the same culture and race as you, hehe.) So if the Bible's true, incest did not do us much harm for all we know. Despite the fact that it clearly forbids it later...

Yes, and then God limited their age to 120 or something (which lasted until today, btw). Maybe he also made humans "weaker" in other respects, like incest, deseases and such.

Out of question, are you a Christian yourself?

Yes I am but not one of those strict ones. And also I think about things I hear/read before I believe them and if something doesn't make sense to me I always try to understand/explain them.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Nephilim
Plus, the Bible was written by man so long ago, when we did not understand all we do now (i.e.--the Earth is not the centre of the universe) so the stories are very simple, passed down myths at the end of the day-- not kidding either, I can relate so many Bible stories to ancient Greek literature.

From my understanding, some of those stories were also Pagan myths/stories. It's also interesting to note that the Christmas Tree is said to have it's origins from Pagan culture aswell.

[Sadiki]

I'm not really a religious person, I belong to chirch, but I don't really have a religion. as said there is many religions and it is impossible to tell what is right if any is. anyways this wasn't a thread about religion so I leave it there, but as you can guess I do believe only on the big bang theory, but as always others can believe what ever they want. it just make so much more sense then that some higher power had created whole universe.

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by lion_roog
From my understanding, some of those stories were also Pagan myths/stories. It's also interesting to note that the Christmas Tree is said to have it's origins from Pagan culture aswell.

Right-o! Some Christian heritage came from Paganism. Example - Halloween (Samhain). Pagans (opposed to Neo-Pagans) didn't believe in cutting down evergreen trees, instead their concept was the decorating type. So... no need for Martha Stewart's Medieval Living.

[Krypto]

[color=yellow]

Let me just start this by saying that I had a hard time trying to get everyone quoted, so I just went back through and put peoples quotes in red. Also, just let me say that I'm not trying to be aggressive toward anyone. So, if it comes off that way, please, forgive my inability to express my true feelings with words.

?The reason being that in the Bible, it doesn't say how God created the Universe, all it says is that he created it. So it is possible that he created it using the Big Bang, and the time span of 7 days, refers to some long period of time.? -Azerane [/red]

That?s a good point! I never considered it that way!

Alot of this is based around the same type of argument that is placed on Darwin?s writings. People say that Darwin wrote what he did in order to disprove God. But Darwin actually believed in God, though it was one who was not omnipresent, and that that God created the original entitify from which all other life grew. He says that God was actually more of a genius because in doing this, he made sure that species would continue to exist on Earth, as they would be able to adapt. I agree with Azerane?s point that this stuff is actually more connected than people often believe. But it all connects back to there indeed being an entity which is God.

?I believe the story in the bible about Adam and Eve was more of a way to explain the creation of the universe to a group of people who couldn't possibly begin to understand the big bang theory. And at the same time it presented a story that tried to give people a reason for all the pain and suffering in the world they had to endure.

So, I don't think the creation story in the bible is wrong, it's just different. Designed for a certain audience. Kinda like if your two year old asked you how the carborator on a 1974 ford worked.? -Kintaru

That?s a really good point!

?Also, in religion class, they told us that Eve was born/made out of a rib from Adam?

How's that even possible *scratches head*? -Nathalie

That does seem curious, but it also says that Adam was made from mud. So, each is as curious as the other. Adam wasn?t made in a normal way and Eve in some far off, crazy way.

?Hmm...in history,they only taught us things they could actually proove, not theories...? -Neola

Then we had really different history classes. Did you all go over the theories about how J.F.K. was shot? Actually, just about all of the stuff that they talk about in history class is theoretical. They weren?t there and the people who wrote the primary sources often weren?t either. They just look at the overview and fill in lots and lots of pages with theories.

?So you believe it's wrong to wear clothes made of more than fabric, and you don't leave your house during your period?? -Nephilim Perhaps they throw in the menstruation bit because it?d be more comfortable for the individual? I mean, I?ve only been around a few people when that?s going on, and it doesn?t look like they?re having a good time. Perhaps being in private would be more comfortable for them? And I?m not sure about the fabric bit: does that mean that it shouldn?t have jewels attached?

?Hmm.. I do not believe in god. And I have to say I don't understand how the big bang could not be true.

Well think about it, it's said that the bang was some sort of a fission, meaning that a huge amount of very solid mass exploded into little pieces. And there's also fusion.
I'm not very good at explaining this, but doesn't it then mean that it's possible that before the big bang, there was something else, something similar to what we have now, and it got into this solid "lump" by fusion and then exploded into our world.

It still doesn't say how it all started, but I think it's a lot better answer than any gods.? -Titunen

But you?re left with the question of where that other world came from? Where did it?s material come from?

Oh, and the Adam and Eve idea? Just think of all the incest that brings up.?-Nephilim. Well, then you hardly believe all the Bible says. Or at least, you don't put it all into practise, right?

I?m not sure that that?s a valid point. What has that got to do with anything? And just think about it: before the last fifty or sixty years, incest was not frowned upon at all. You?re committing the same fallacy as the people whom you criticize from the earlier world: that they look at life from the perspective of only their time period. And that last bit is nothing more than a rather vicious personal attack and is highly inappropriate.

?All humans were also meant to live in Eden and Eden alone forever.?-Nephilim

I?m not sure where you got this from. I?ve actually read that part of the bible really recently, and I didn?t see anything about that.

he also tells them to "be fruitful and multiply in number," or something that effect.? -Nephilim


God doesn?t say anything like that to Adam and Eve. He says that to a man much later in the bible, because that man would create kings. So, no, that has nothing to do with Adam and Eve.

?however the evidence against it is huge.?-SimbaTheLion No, it?s actually not. I just did a presentation on this and, no, the evidence really isn?t ?huge?. In fact, there?s just as little evidence to support it as there is to support faith.

?as said there is many religions and it is impossible to tell what is right if any is.? -SimbaTheMighty

You?re absolutely right. But there is one religion which is different. All of the religions except one are about followers who attempt to do enough stuff that is ?right? in order to get a reward. The only religion which has followers who have a god who has descended to Earth and is there for them is Christianity. This is neither here nor there and a bit off topic, but it?s just something of which I?ve recently become aware and I thought it?d be cool to fit it in here somewhere!

[Nephilim]

I?m not sure where you got this from. I?ve actually read that part of the bible really recently, and I didn?t see anything about that.

Um, the Fall? Original Sin? Ring any bells? Being kicked out of Eden because of it-- they knew of good and evil, and so could not be allowed to eat from the tree of life. God did not create humans to sin, thus they were meant to be in Eden.

God doesn?t say anything like that to Adam and Eve. He says that to a man much later in the bible, because that man would create kings. So, no, that has nothing to do with Adam and Eve.

No wait, you're wrong.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." [...]

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning?the sixth day.

This clearly takes place during creation.

[Ghamu]

Originally posted by Krypto
But you're left with the question of where that other world came from? Where did it?s material come from?

Why are we left with that question? Why did it have to 'come' from anywhere? Far as we know, it could have been around forever.

Originally posted by Krypto
All of the religions except one are about followers who attempt to do enough stuff that is ?right? in order to get a reward.

Isn't trying to do the 'right' quite admirable, though? The christian doesn't have to bother with that, but can be as cantankerous and unpleasant as he/she likes, because it's not actions, but rather what you believe in that determines your worth?

Originally posted by Krypto
The only religion which has followers who have a god who has descended to Earth and is there for them is Christianity.

The Greeks have already been mentioned, so I thought I'd point that what little classical Greek literature I'm familiar with (pretty much limited to Homer's 'The Iliad', though, so I might be a bit biased) the Greek gods pretty much did nothing else but meddle in the affairs of mortals and 'descend to Earth' to cause trouble (or to fix some mess some other god had caused). And then there's the hinduist god Krishna that comes here every once in while to hang around with pretty ladies and whatnot.

But all that aside, every religion has something that makes it unique, for if it didn't, we wouldn't call it by a seperate name. Well, ok, I guess there's always the kind of people that try to reinvent 'truths' that been around for decades or hundreds of years by giving them a new name. Can't think of any at the top of my head, but anyone's welcome to chime in with whatever examples they can think of.

I'd also like to point out that there are other stories of creation than the christian '7 days'-version, and that I think human science probably had very little to do with creating the Universe. (Hey, that's what the original question seemed to suggest! To me, at least...)

But to answer the original question; I can't really say that it matters to me if the Universe is 13,7 billion years old or if it was created yesterday. The scientific explanation seems... well, 'better' and the ones with an opposing view usually seem pretty flaky (if not downright stupid). Since I have a typical leaning towards that whole 'intellectual' rot, the scientific version is what I usually go with when someone asks me about it. When I don't tell them that my views are undergoing a 'radical restructuring right now' anyway (which is usually even true).

Oh yeah. And:

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
There wasn't 'nothing', there was most likely a gravitational singularity present.

Which means, not only was there not nothing there, but in fact, everything was there. Which doesn't really explain it to those that don't understand what a 'gravitational singularity' is, but I thought it was pretty funny way of looking at it at least.

Noone else agreed, huh? Oh well...

[Muruwa]

The universe, in my humble opinion, was created by God, though through natural means. The whole 7 days, I personally believe that time in heaven where God lives is different than earth time, so for all we know it could have been 7 days in Gods time but billions of years our time. I believe God works through natural laws as far as this is concerned, so I personally believe in evolution as well as a way of creating Adam and Eve (if this is my religions view on this I'm not sure). And in bringing up Adam and Eve, they didn't know good from evil in the garden of Eden, that's what happened when they ate the forbidden fruit (I'd find the scripture reference but I'm too lazy). They were in a pure state, knowing niether good or evil, happiness or sorrow because they hadn't experienced any of this. The fall, while viewed in a very negative way by many (yes it was bad that they sinned) was actually good for us because we wouldn't be here if Adam and Eve hadn't fallen from their perfect and pure state. Since many of you believe that the bible is metaphors and stories meant to teach, I would recommend reading Asimov's Guide to the Bible by Isaac Asimov; he puts things in historical context and does his best to explain many phenomena in the bible. I personally haven't gotten time to read the whole thing and found the beggining slow (because he's going through people's lineage and family lines) but what I read was pretty interesting.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Muruwa
The universe, in my humble opinion, was created by God, though through natural means. The whole 7 days, I personally believe that time in heaven where God lives is different than earth time, so for all we know it could have been 7 days in Gods time but billions of years our time.

That could be true. Supported by science even. According to Einstein, time is affected by the speed at which an object is travelling, if I remember right.

[Shadow]

i dont really belive in anything....i just think that where here end of story.....


i do want to note that i do not belive in god....

[Only-now]

I don't have time for a long posy, but StL, there is never going to be a way to "disprove" God's existence, etc. Especially not through science. No matter how deep you get into physics, you are really only reading what could be the laws that God wrote for the universe to "run" on. Figuring out how something works still does not prove that there is no God, etc. Maybe people who do not believe in a God or Gods believe that logic disproves it, but those who do believe have just the same strength in their beliefs.

I am not a Christian, but I would also like to say that just because there are some vague areas, or mistakes within the Bible, that doesn't prove or disprove anything. I find problems with the bible sure, and with the way it is "layed out" and yes these mistakes can in fact sway belief, etc. What is of real importance here is to remember that if you are studying these religions, to not focus on trying to prove or disprove, but to look at both sides. Otherwise, you are just another person who has joined a side, and will say the same things that have been said for years, and no one will get anywhere. Also, people have to try and stay away from hostility towards a religion or the beliefs of one. Whether a God exists or not, humanity has gained greatly from what many religions teach. I am not saying anyone here is being hostile, but that is something important to remember.

~Kiva

[Only-now]

That isn't what I am saying though. Proving how something in the universe works, or how it was created does not do anything whatsoever to prove that God did or didn't create it, or that there is or isn't a God. The further we get in solutions, the more questions will arise, and we will always be able to move the question back further and further. There is not physics or mathematical problem that can be solved with a numerical or theoretical answer that would then be able to say with complete certainty, that there is no God. God, his being, and our beliefs all stem from human thought, and human nature, not mathematics. There is no passage in the bible that says "If thou can solveth this equation, thou shall be anointed with thy answer thy seeketh"..lol.

Humans are very intelligent creatures, and I have NO doub that by the time I die we will understand a huge amount more about the world and the universe than we do now..but I would be willing to bet that we will never prove through mathematics, etc that God doesn't exist. Even though I am not Christian, if there is a God, I would have to say that he is probably laughing at our little conversation here. To prove something as this, it does not take what we call "complex mathematics" but a heightened spiritual level. What we create to explain and solve our problems, I am sure do not come close to what we have to understand to solve this puzzle. Also, I believe that there are very few people who are strong believers that try and use mathematics to prove God's existence. Even scientists who are Christian do not try, and I believe that is because they do not have to. They have something called faith, and it is stronger than scrutiny. It will always be non-believers that strive for "proof" and that is understandable. I feel the same way many a time because I have a hard time with the situation. I do not however believe that anyone can sit down, study what we may one day learn about the universe, and use a mathematical equation to disprove something such as this. There is nothing in the Bible mathematical to disprove. There is nothing in the Bible that forbids a certain law of physics we might one day discover. Therefore, I cannot understand how someone can say that those can be used to disprove the existence of God.

~Kiva

[Kovu The Lion]

if you want to get technical about it, God never existed as a physical being, but only through the body of Jesus Christ, as God is nothing but a spirit as he tells John when he asks to see him god replies

"NO man can ever see me"

Thats called the holy trinity , God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, The body, Mind, and Soul.

As for science going to prove the bible to be wrong, it will never happen, because everyday new questions are made, and new questions are answered, its an ongoing thing. just like humans dont know what happened in the fist 0.000000000000000001 seconds when the universe was first started, was it god or was it the big bang, or was it both, or was everything just here.

The problem with this being, "Energy can't be created nor destroyed" So the earth and universes most likely had to be here, or created by some superior being above all (God)

I don't really know what to say other than the bible is a lot contradictory, but the only reason it is is because more than one person wrote the bible, and everyone assumes different things in their own minds, from differnet problems, so its not really contradictory, Not the words of Jesus Christ anyways. But the words of the apostles and deciples maybe.

If you looked at it. The Universe could never be made by Science, at least not by my stand point, trying to say again, nothing can be created without something being their already, so there had to be SOMETHING in the Universe for the earth and galaxies + planets to appear, that being, God. If someone has something to prove me wrong please point it out, Been wondering this for a damn long time

~KtL

EDIT:

not attacking you STL just want to state something =)

It's going to be rigorously proven one day though ^_~ ... Everything can be proven, simply we don't have the tools to prove some things yet.

The bible was pointed out to be true when christianity started

the bible also states how the earth came to be what it is today, so the bible, is a tool, that tells how man came of today, and how our earth and everyting was created.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
I don't know how it can be explained any better than I tried to people who don't have very good knowledge of physics and the like. If anyone wants to have a go, feel free ^_~ ...

Aha, I have an idea.

Do we all agree that 0.9 recurring = 1?

We can never go back to the very start of everything, simply because that would be going back an infinite number of years. Infinity is a concept, not a number with any defined value.

Let's look at 0.9999999999999... No matter how many 9s we put onto this, it will never equal 1, although it will get infinitely close. That's the same as saying "Oh, yes, let's go 9999999999999999999..." years back to see what was happening then. No matter how far back we go, we can always go further back.

HOWEVER!

We see that the number 999... diverges to infinity. So, we will eventually be able to go as far back as ever could be possible. This will, in essence, be going back to the very start.

In fact, infinite density/heat was only realised in the gravitational singularity that was present before the Big Bang took place.

Darnit, I gave myself a headache now ...

What I gave was a completely comprehensible argument, yet you don't understand what I'm getting at... Hmm, kinda irritating ... I wish I could explain it more clearly to you...

Perhaps we should leave the maths/physics until I can get someone in here with a good bit more knowledge than me ^_~ ! If only I was doing my degree I could probably be a little more convincing for you x_x ...

That all seemed really... condescending if you ask me. We're not idiots ya know, and a good number of us have a decent understanding of math and physics. You're making the assumption that the "Beginning" of things was an infinite number of years ago, while there's absolutely no requirement that something exist. It is completely logical that there's a point where you just can't go any further back. What existed before that point? Error. Non-existance. Nothing. More so, now that we're dealing with singularities, I don't think it's possible to even make an educated guess at this point in time, as a singularity, if such a thing even exists, is a whole 'nother ballfield that can only be speculated about. Regardless, I've always considered an argument that can't be explained to the common man to almost always be invalid. Likewise, I've always considered "Well, you just have to be more learned in the subject" to be a great way of saying "Well, I don't really know, but take my word for it."

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
I don't know how it can be explained any better than I tried to people who don't have very good knowledge of physics and the like. If anyone wants to have a go, feel free ^_~ ...

Aha, I have an idea.

Do we all agree that 0.9 recurring = 1?

We can never go back to the very start of everything, simply because that would be going back an infinite number of years. Infinity is a concept, not a number with any defined value.

Let's look at 0.9999999999999... No matter how many 9s we put onto this, it will never equal 1, although it will get infinitely close. That's the same as saying "Oh, yes, let's go 9999999999999999999..." years back to see what was happening then. No matter how far back we go, we can always go further back.

HOWEVER!

We see that the number 999... diverges to infinity. So, we will eventually be able to go as far back as ever could be possible. This will, in essence, be going back to the very start.

In fact, infinite density/heat was only realised in the gravitational singularity that was present before the Big Bang took place.

Darnit, I gave myself a headache now ...

What I gave was a completely comprehensible argument, yet you don't understand what I'm getting at... Hmm, kinda irritating ... I wish I could explain it more clearly to you...

Perhaps we should leave the maths/physics until I can get someone in here with a good bit more knowledge than me ^_~ ! If only I was doing my degree I could probably be a little more convincing for you x_x ...

Scientists don't need to go back 0.999999999 or whatever, From the internet and my science books and texts I've read, we know (From a scientific standpoint) what happened to the universe, except the first, non-existent time of nothingness they call .. something, but anywyas, what I was saying is Scientist, 'KNOW' what happened, but they don't know what created that and what made that happen (big bang, Nuclear clouds, God..Etc)

And I know what you are talking about Simba, try following the rules and don't throw people down like that just because they aren't at your level of math

But what it really sounds like to me StL, is you just don't really care what anyone has to say about it in a Christian View Point

~KtL

EDIT: If we got into Quantum Physics, DAMN! Anythings possible then XD

[Only-now]

I agree, that did seem a bit condescending on the recieving end here. I don't think you need to explain anything else to me. You are trying to use the wrong tool to solve a problem here. Maybe this is because this is something that you have a large degree of knowledge in, and so you feel it is what you can use to solve the puzzle, but it isn't the case.

It's like trying to answer a "what's your opinion" question in English class using a velocity formula. I really have doubt that you would get that far, because that is using the wrong tool for the problem. I would LOVE for someone to explain to me/us, if we are that blind, how mathematics by either value or application that God doesn't exist. I think that is a very large bite to chew, especially with the wrong method. It is not out of the question to disprove a theory or statement on how something works, but the problem is that the Bible does not even care to speak of such things. So what exactly would math and physics be use dto disprove? Maybe you can disprove theories created by MAN that are supported by Christians, but that also does nothing.

The whole reason we are even having this talk is because we as man, decide to question this book. We as man have developed all these tools we use to solve the puzzles of the universe, and the problems we create. Using these tools, this "key to the code" so to speak, does nothing but help us decipher what might be God's work, not disprove it. That takes a much different type of tool, and thinking.

~Kiva