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Thread: Debate: Confederate Flag In School

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    Senior Member Kovu The Lion's Avatar
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    Debate: Confederate Flag In School

    Hmm let?s see if we can have a debate here, get some attention going. IF this stirs up any problems, lock it immediately, But I want some Americans (and none Americans) view points upon this subject.

    Okay here we go, in school we are studying American History and the ?use of the Confederate Flag?, many people disagree with it, and many people agree with it. But many a schools problems are this: The banishment of the Confederate Flag upon any articles of clothing, and if seen then immediate action must be taken.?

    Our school has disallowed and banned the flag, if it?s on your car, your shirt, your pocket book, your wallet, anywhere. You get suspended from school for 2 days. Here?s what I see about the Topic. Why ban something of American history? I do know the KKK did use it as their symbol or wave it around during meetings and assemblies. But the flag shouldn?t offend Negro?s (No offense to any one of a different color) They should be offended by the people instead of the flag itself, (I got this because the flag is banned because of racial issues, and the blacks at our school didn?t like it, Once again no offense!) What I want to see is Lea Halalela?s side upon the story, what do you guys think should be done, and do you think they should allow the flag to be worn in school? Or if they should not allow the flag in school?

    Well Lea, Lets here it!

    I do want your opinion, but your opinion doesnt have to harass, or put down the south or north or the sides of the Confederate flags, Keep it /clean/
    ~KTL~

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    Senior Member nathalie's Avatar
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    I think banning it is a little harsh.

    I don't really know, in most Belgium schools, there isn't even a flag.
    And there are very less clothing with involves the Belgium flag.
    (only thing I can think of, is the shirt of our national soccer team)

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    Schools, the many I've been filteed through use the freedom of the black people as the thesis for the war. Wrong.

    You want the best answer?

    The causes of the war will be found at the foundation of our political fabric, in our complex organism, in the fundamental law, in the Constitution itself, in the conflicting constructions which it invited, and in the institution of slavery which it recognized and was intended to protect. If asked what was the real issue involved in our unparalleled conflict, the average American citizen will reply, "The negro"; and it is fair to say that had there been no slavery there would have been no war. But there would have been no slavery if the South's protests could have availed when it was first introduced; and now that it is gone, although its sudden and violent abolition entailed upon the South directly and incidentally a series of woes which no pen can describe, yet it is true that in no section would its reestablishment be more strongly and universally resisted. The South steadfastly maintains that responsibility for the presence of this political Pandora's box in this Western world cannot be laid at her door. When the Constitution was adopted and the Union formed, slavery existed in practically all the States; and it is claimed by the Southern people that its disappearance from the Northern and its development in the Southern States is due to climatic conditions and industrial exigencies rather than to the existence or absence of great moral ideas.

    And more may be found here ----> http://www.civilwarhome.com/gordoncauses.htm

    NOTE: To read the ENTIRE thesis for the war, go to that site before using only what I posted as my entire army for the argument.

    My grandfather, and home family has the convee flag up. I really don't agree with the North on many occassions, and they weren't all that 'glorious' and 'smooth shined' as the schools make it up to be. I think it's ridiculous that they ban it, and I'd leave the school such as my friend did once. Next thing you know, we're all wearin the same clothes so we don't offend people! Wait, aren't those called uniforms? Hmmm....

    Ayways, my opinion...the flag should be permitted. Not because I think so, but, look at the war, it's background, the outcome. You know it reminds me of this:

    "There are two possibilities for me: To win through with all my plans, or to fail. If I win, I shall be one of the greatest men in history. If I fail, I shall be condemned, despised and damned."
    - Adolf Hitler, Nazi Dictator

    He himself has nothing to do with what's going on but it's the words he used. In schools, and I went through many in VARIOUS regions of the USA - we are taught Civ' War was cuz' slavery, the south be bad, the north be good! and then they win, and that's how it stays. Some people are smart, look deeper and get the idear here. The south was NOT bad, or evil, like the Nazi's in ww2. They were just as good as the North, if not better. And because they lost doesn't mean they need to be condemned. Point is, that's the views of schools, and banning the convee flag there prooves their narrow minded views.


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    Its pretty popular among some students in junior high to/and senior high and you see it on a car now and then, its not connected to race here, its more err..something to look cool or being rebelious. I could be wrong but thats how i see it :E

    I can understand why its banned at your school, since most people probaly see it as a symbol for slavery/racial slur/things like that.

    I can also understand your point of view KTL but i guess it has been used to negatively to not be banned in school.

    Take the swastika, it was a harmless symbol used in different occasions, i think one was as a sun symbol in india.

    Just incase someone misunderstands because of this rather touchy subject i did not mean to offend anyone with this post and if i did i apologize.

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    I'm glad I'm being home schooled now....They were constantly talking to me about because I'd accidentally scribble it on something. I don't see how the school could blame me, though. It's all around my house, and I see it literally every day. (Rambling....)
    Anyway....I don't see anything wrong with it. It's history.

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    The point of the Civl War was NOT over slavery. I was taught this in school, and when you look at it logically I think it makes since.

    The war was REALLY fought over whether states of the United States had the right to choose to secede from the Union. THIS was the main reason that we went to war with the South. In the United States, the federal government is supreme, and thus the states cannot choose to not be part of the union for any reason. Slavery might have been one of the reasons the South seceded, but it wasn't why the North went to war with the south.

    Slavery had existed in the North as well, but yes...the rural south had a huge need for slaves. The view of them being less developed over time, (for many other reasons). In fact, at first the south used indentured servants (sorry if I got the spelling off) to do labor in exchange for passage to America. When the south began to grow, they needed more labor than those servants could provide. So, they began taking slaves to use because that was the only way their way of life could survive.

    Plus, I get tired of people thinking that slavery originated here. It has been going on for THOUASANDS of years all over the world. The black people sometimes tend to think that they are the only ones who suffered it, but so did white people, native americans, indians, and every other culture around the world.

    Of course, slavery IS wrong, and it WAS originally mentioned in the Constitution, though it was revised and taken out.

    Anyways, banning the flag has NO point at all. One, it should not offend anyone because it isn't a representation of slavery, or evil. I believe that black people have their own things that could be offensive to us, yet they are NEVER told not to wear something like so. I mean, what about all the Malcolm X shirts? He was a militant black, who thought it was best to use violence to get your way? I think THAT should be banned as well, because it is offensive to white people...right? At my school, it isn't banned, and I live in Virginia. I mean, there is a point to where you have to set a limit...and I disagree with purposely shoving the flag in someone's face JUST to cause problems. But having the flag, people should be able to deal with...and that freedom of expression shouldnt be supressed because of a few who do not like it.

    Btw, I in NO way can see the Nazis in comparison to the South. See, the south didn't really want to exterminate millions of people, or invade the rest of the US and make their law, EVERYONE'S law. Those are some very fundamental points to make, but the list could go on for a long time. Plus, how can you actually quote someone like Hitler? (I mean, I agree with your point of view on the flag..but nothing he has said should ever be used in the context of anything other than evil...imo)

    ~Kiva

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    Oh, I understand the reasoning behind it.

    In England and many other countries we have school uniforms, and not just to be awkward. Having a uniform on makes you conform to a certain social role (i.e. the The Stanford Prison Experiment), thus dulling your individuality; makes kids behave better.

    I know fully well that the majority of American schools don't have a uniform, but the idea behind it is the same, and pretty much what Boos said. Something that puts across your opinion - or in this case, something you have pride in - can be potentially dangerous. Again with the idea of the Swastika, but only in a school so therefore on a smaller scale- it can be used to put across a variety of different ideas and so on.

    So yeah, no flags. Your education will hardly suffer without them.

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    Well, school is fundamentally a place for education, but other things arise in that area, that can spread to the rest of the country and life.

    I guess it depends on whether you take pride in certain freedoms, etc. I also do not think education suffers from someone being open about their opinions. Of course, if it was a shirt that was blatantly racist, or crude etc...that SHOULD be banned, or that person punished. Having the symbol of a flag that means a variety of things is not reason to ban it.

    If anything, it is just another example of bureaucracy, and a liberal one at that. "No one can be offended ever, because that could mean we get in trouble...so sacrafice ALL people's expression, speech etc, so we can protect ourselves!"

    There is a one sentence philosophy behind that.

    ~Kiva

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Only-now
    [B]The point of the Civl War was NOT over slavery. I was taught this in school, and when you look at it logically I think it makes since.

    The war was REALLY fought over whether states of the United States had the right to choose to secede from the Union. THIS was the main reason that we went to war with the South. In the United States, the federal government is supreme, and thus the states cannot choose to not be part of the union for any reason. Slavery might have been one of the reasons the South seceded, but it wasn't why the North went to war with the south.

    Slavery had existed in the North as well, but yes...the rural south had a huge need for slaves. The view of them being less developed over time, (for many other reasons). In fact, at first the south used indentured servants (sorry if I got the spelling off) to do labor in exchange for passage to America. When the south began to grow, they needed more labor than those servants could provide. So, they began taking slaves to use because that was the only way their way of life could survive.

    Plus, I get tired of people thinking that slavery originated here. It has been going on for THOUASANDS of years all over the world. The black people sometimes tend to think that they are the only ones who suffered it, but so did white people, native americans, indians, and every other culture around the world.

    Of course, slavery IS wrong, and it WAS originally mentioned in the Constitution, though it was revised and taken out.

    Anyways, banning the flag has NO point at all. One, it should not offend anyone because it isn't a representation of slavery, or evil. I believe that black people have their own things that could be offensive to us, yet they are NEVER told not to where something like so. I mean, what about all the Malcolm X shirts? He was a militant black, who thought it was best to use violence to get your way? I think THAT should be banned as well, because it is offensive to white people...right? At my school, it isn't banned, and I live in Virginia. I mean, there is a point to where you have to set a limit...and I disagree with purposely shoving the flag in someone's face JUST to cause problems. But having the flag, people should be able to deal with...and that freedom of expression shouldnt be supressed because of a few who do not like it.




    Nicely said...that IS very annoying. I'm not saying (Definantly not...!) that all black people say that, but I've run into a few that actually cussed me out for being white, and putting their grandparents through slavery. Oh, the joys of being a Dixie.

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    Originally posted by Only-now

    Btw, I in NO way can see the Nazis in comparison to the South. See, the south didn't really want to exterminate millions of people, or invade the rest of the US and make their law, EVERYONE'S law. Those are some very fundamental points to make, but the list could go on for a long time. Plus, how can you actually quote someone like Hitler? (I mean, I agree with your point of view on the flag..but nothing he has said should ever be used in the context of anything other than evil...imo)

    ~Kiva
    Man I wish I had like, one of those FBI audio recordings when Mr. Hudson said in History, You want a good face of the South? Well let's flip our pages to 298. The Nazi's my friends, the Confederates Extream.

    Now you have to ask yourself, would you like to know if that helped me in my walk with ww2 problems? Or, if it helped the stduents grasp the Civil War any better? I seriously hate to see them now :E We can only hope a better education errupts soon, or what yalls saw a few days ago coming from me with be mad fire. Anywho, that's why I quoted Hitler and the Nazi's, because upstairs, for Klondike Utora, they have relavence ((sp)) because that's how I was educated sadly. But a few years outta the system, I regained conciousness and realized the truth.


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    Apparently not if you are still quoting them, and well...following them in a sense. I still have more to discuss on that issue.

    Also, how someone teaches doesn't necessarily mean it is correct. The same could go for how I am being taught, but the fact that most teachers don't compare the south to the Nazis shifts my opinion more in my direction.

    There was also a professor who said that September 11th was a good thing...that doesn't make it right, it is just his way of teaching and his opinion. Good thing that he got crucified for that! *grins*

    ~Kiva

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    Your Ghost Host HasiraKali's Avatar
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    This was an issue at my high school. The school is called Robert E. Lee High School. For years there was a Confederate battle flag (the one everyone associates with the confederacy) on the side of the gym. Someone complained and rather than fight or make a big fuss, the school simply switched to the actual Confederate flag. Someone complained about that so they just designed a new one. The battle flag is still ALL over the school in one way or another. It's on my patches on my letterman, but apparently, as long as it's not on the gym it's ok. I honestly thought the whole thing was silly. The flag was never officially banned but the school just took it down to avoid a fight over something so petty.

    We are so much more complicated than our names.
    *Team Night Sky*
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    Re: Debate: Confederate Flag In School

    Originally posted by Kovu The Lion Why ban something of American history? I do know the KKK did use it as their symbol or wave it around during meetings and assemblies. But the flag shouldn?t offend Negro?s (No offense to any one of a different color) They should be offended by the people instead of the flag itself.[/i]
    Yeah...that pretty much sums up how I see it.

    I'm hesitant to give mine, because I just don't like opinions. I wish that there could be a right and a wrong and be done with it. This gray stuff, if you will, hurts my head.

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    I'm going to state my opinion of this matter quite frankly; I hate it when people wear the confederate flag. I believe that the war was fought over slavery, because slavery was too tied into the south's economy. If slavery was abolished when the south was still a part of the union, the south would have been crippled economically. However, the thing that bothers me about the confederate flag is the mentality in the south during the reconstruction. There was no reason for them to be so racist towards blacks after the 13th amendment. But it was that whole view of white superiority that kept the "southern mentality" alive. The south was bitter towards blacks and the north because the 13th amendment showed that blacks were truly equal to whites, which proved that the south's previous mentality was wrong.

    I know that a lot of people wear it because it's the "cool/rebellious" thing to do... but if you look more into the issue, it's really displaying a racist mindset from the reconstruction of the south. I see it being similar to people wearing swastikas to show signs of power.

    EDIT: Seeing as though other offensive remarks and signs are prohibited from schools (or at least from what I have heard), I see no problem with banning the confederate flag for personal statements.

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    The reason that it's banned, atleast in my opinion, is quite simple. It's seen by the government as a symbol of rebellion. A lot of people actually want it just cause it's cool or trendy, or anything else, but to many the only message it sends when they see someone with it is that they believe that the south should still be a seperate country(and to a lesser degree that slavery should be legal, which insults many african americans I know.), and in a way it's indirectly saying to the government that you don't want to be part of the U.S. Now, are most people really trying to send that message, no, but that doesn't make it right either. I have great respect for the US flag. There are a lot of things people might not agree with when it comes to our gov, etc, but the flag is a pure, sacred symbol of the people, and every ideal that our country strives to stand for. So I am personally against the confederate flag being flown or displayed for that reason, it'd disrespectful to Old Glory.

    Yes, it is a part of history, and so we can't pretend it never existed. But look at it this way, do you think that people in Germany should be allowed to fly flags with the Swastika or not? It's just a symbol, sure, but it's a very hurtful one to many. And the confederate flag is insult to many people, particularly blacks, and I agree with them.

    (Though I must admit, the General Lee wouldn't look nearly as cool if it didn't have the confederate flag painted on the top of it, hehe. )

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    Senior Member Sombolia's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Debate: Confederate Flag In School

    Originally posted by Krypto
    I'm hesitant to give mine, because I just don't like opinions. I wish that there could be a right and a wrong and be done with it. This gray stuff, if you will, hurts my head.
    I.. wha? A world like that would really, really suck.

    Um.. I think if people wanna wear it, whatever. But I can understand the reasoning for it being banned.

    My school's dress code is a bit ridiculous.. apparently, we're allowed to have "Jackass" patches on our backpacks and 'innopropiate' stickers on our binders, but my friend got in trouble for wearing a shirt that said 'Kiss Me, I'm Irish'. wtf.

    ETA: ..however, I wore my "Kiss Me, I'm Punk" shirt to school, and no one said anything. Eh?

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    Why would he get in trouble for wearing a kiss me I'm Irish shirt? Those have been around for ages, what's the big deal?

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    Originally posted by Kintaru
    Why would he get in trouble for wearing a kiss me I'm Irish shirt? Those have been around for ages, what's the big deal?
    Eh, it's just a case of political correctness going too far. Things get offensive over time too, like spastic, nigger, and soon... pike. Oh noes.

    Edit: Oh, and Kiva, your sig is too big. You'll have to change it

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    Any irish person who's offended by that shouldn't be allowed to be Irish.

    *Irish Pride.* I mean come on, how can that be offensive? PC is going way to far. Soon I won't be able to have a shirt with a picture of ice cream on it cause is offends fat people, or a picture of a dog cause it offends people who like cats, or a picture of a car cause it offends people who were in accidents.

    Oy, it's rediculus.

    And damnit, Kiss me, Cause I'm Irish!

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    The Confederate flag represents much more than racism and slavery.

    It's a symbol, especially today, of that region's (South's) pride in their heritage as independent and of their miliary tradition.

    And as a special treat, I'll post Ann Coulter's view on the matter:

    VICE PRESIDENT Al Gore, Bill Bradley and John McCain have all denounced the Confederate battle flag as representing slavery and have demanded that it be removed from all public buildings. Whenever I hear white people somberly opining that the Confederate battle flag symbolizes slavery, I can't help wondering who their friends are. Do their friends support slavery? Does anyone -- apart from a few demonstrably insane losers?

    In a duly famous "Saturday Night Live" skit, Eddie Murphy goes on a bus disguised as a white person and discovers that as soon as the white people think all the blacks are off the bus, they start serving cocktails and dancing. Politicians who claim the Confederate battle flag symbolizes slavery may as well be claiming that all the white people get cocktails and music when the last black person leaves the bus. It's not true.

    So as a white person, I would like to assure all nonwhites that these politicians are lying: White people do not secretly support slavery any more than they drink cocktails and dance on the bus.

    The Confederate battle flag today has nothing to do with race. It stands for a romantic image of a chivalric, honor-based culture that was driven down by the brute force of crass Yankee capitalism, which was better at manufacturing weapons than using them, and that shortly thereafter gave us the Grant administration and the Gilded Age. (We'll leave out trebling the average life span, ending chattel slavery, creating a world in which half the human race gets beaten up a whole lot less by the other half, and various other things that those money-grubbing followers of that awful Hobbes guy somehow accomplished despite caring only about making a buck.)

    It stands for a proud military heritage shared by both blacks and whites in the South. The reverence for tradition and pride in historical antecedents are precisely what make Southerners, black and white, such stalwart patriots.

    The Confederate battle flag controversy is a completely synthetic issue created by the same people who believe there is a burgeoning class of brilliant blacks graduating from law school every year, but Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg refuses to hire them out purely out of racism. They are picking a fight in an election year to enable The New York Times to distribute daily reports on the superior Democratic response on the question of the Confederate flag.

    It is also a completely illogical issue. If the Confederate battle flag can be tagged as a tribute to slavery, how is it that the American flag has gotten a pass so far? Slavery existed far longer under Old Glory than under the Stars and Bars.

    More urgently, what's with the African garb and kente cloth worn by some American blacks supposedly as a symbol of black pride? White slave traders weren't dashing into the jungle and capturing their own slaves: They were buying them, fair and square, from their African masters. Slavery, as Joe Sobran has remarked, is the only African institution America has ever adopted. Indeed, slavery still exists today, at the end of the 20th century, in some parts of Africa.

    There is no shortage of artifacts that could be accused of "representing" slavery. Perhaps the race demagogues should be demanding that South Carolina change the name of the state since that was the same state that fired on Fort Sumter. They could take a page from the French Revolution and start changing the calendar and the names of the months in light of the fact that slavery existed during months with names like "February."

    But there is one problem with a total rejection of all things related to slavery: It was the Democratic Party that supported it. The Republican Party was formed for the specific purpose of opposing slavery. I'll start believing the Confederate battle flag hurts somebody's feelings as soon as the existence of the Democratic Party hurts their feelings, too.

    These are the rules -- and pay close attention, because they are completely arbitrary: "Dixie" is bad because it uses Southern black dialect. Rap music, however, is good, even though it employs a black criminal dialect. The flag under which slavery flourished for almost a century is good. But the flag under which slavery existed for less than a decade is bad. One continent's slavery is good, but another continent's purchasing of those very slaves is bad. And for the final rousing conclusion: The party that supported slavery, leading to the Civil War, is good. But the party that was created expressly to oppose slavery is bad.

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