Debate: Experts say trophy hunting will save remaining lions.

[Xinithian]

I don't really know much about the environmental issues, but my main problem with hunting is their motives. They just make up excuses to go hunting, like to save the environment (which may or may not be true), but what I don't like is that they take pleasure in killing the animals and make it a sport. They don't do it for the environment, but rather for their own pleasure. If they truly did it for the environment, they would kill the animals very professionally by using high-calibered assault rifles and choppers, and just get the killing over with painlessly and quickly.

[Akiko]

That conversation made some great points, however I still feel it's wrong to harm any creature for the "fun" of it. In the topic it mentions that lions are "overpopulated"...is that true really? If you compare them to humans, then thats not true at all. Humans are the most overpopulated species on the planet, causing the earth more pain than any other animal...and yet you don't see "trophy hunts" for them.

edit: my friend just pointed out a quote from some movie that fits this really well...

"I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is not another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern." :Ohno:

kinda' scary how much truth there is there in that quote.

[This Land]

That Article is aload of ****** basicly.

Whats gets on my wick is that they say that 70 people are killed by lions every year, but they also say that hundreds of lions are being killed by humans so its still unfair on Lions.

And Lion kill humans for a reason, being on their terrortory, Lion are very terrtorial animals, its thier instinct to kill anything that invades their terrertory.
But humans kill lions for fun, which i think is really cruel and totally evil.

[Scorplion]

I think these people are missing the biggest problem.
Stop the humans from BREEDING. Crips. They're like rabbits. They are the ones causing the lack of habitat, food, etc.
It's not like it's the lion population getting out of hand. No. It's the human population.
I wouldn't have a big problem with this if it were actually the lions who needed to be curtailed in their breeding efforts.
Why can't people ever deal with the real issue instead of shoving it off to the side or covering it up with something else?
This 'solution' isn't going to make the problem go away. It's going to make even bigger problems in the future.
And really, what trophy hunter wants to take down an old, scarred lion? They're gonna want the big, golden lions in the prime of their life.
The idiocy of this is enough to make me want to start trophy hunting humans.

[Only-now]

Where to start?

First, I want to say that the article orginally posted is easy to see through. The first thing you can see that "kills" the truth of the article comes from within. Money. As was mentioned in the article, those African nations make a lot of money by endorsing trophy hunting, and having rich hunters pay for the chance to shoot a lion. Of course the article, and the nations are going to SAY they COULD use the money to help the lions, but who here believes poor, third world nations that are leaders in illegal weapons, drugs, etc? The money is NOT going to go to lion conservation, but will be used for other things that increase that or other problems.

My personal stance on trophy hunting is that it is very unnecessary, and really does more harm than good. There are no practical reasons to kill an animal for its looks, or head. I do not oppose hunting for food though. If you eat what you kill, and hunt fairly (without spotlighting, running dogs, etc) then that is alright. Of course we are not going to use our hands to hunt, because that was not our gift. Our gift is intelligence..and we have used to even the odds, and sometimes shift them to our favor. I can't say that humans should be criticized for hunting with a rifle, and if anything..wouldn't you prefer one, clean shot from a highpowered rifle, than beating the animal to death with a club? I personally think that we have developed more humane ways to hunt by using rifles, instead of spears, and clubs. The regular hunters..the ones who eat the deer they kill usually love animals, and wildlife. It seems hard to imagine, but they do the most contribution to foundations that support wildlife, etc. The people who kill just for the head however, cannot say that they love wildlife, because there is NO practical reason for doing so. They say it is for the challenge..then why not use the challenge (what amount there is) to complete something that matters and not just keep a carcasses head. It really isn't intimidating, or appealing to anyone who sees it..and you could just as easily have a fake head in your house if you think it looks good. If you eat the deer you kill, and keep the head..that is debatable..but it gets down to it being pointless and almost disgusting...though some think it is a display of accomplishment.

Of course, lions are not eaten..so the killing is for the soul purpose of having a lion's head, and saying you killed one. It isn't even challenging in the way they do it. Many times, it is even a canned lion hunt...which everyone here knows much about already. There is no skill in shooting a caged lion, or being driven to the area where the lions are, shown where they are, and then firing at them.

People who are killed by lions are obviously doing something to mess with them. I don't mean that they are teasing the lions (lol), but they are in their territory, trying to attack them, or in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Lions do not usually just come into a village, or up to a vehicle and start slaughtering tourist or villagers.

My last point I would like to say, is that criticizing humans as a whole is also terrible. I really don't like when people decide that because of a few people who make wrong choices, the entire race should be classified as evil, cruel, despicable, etc. There are also rapists, serial killers, murderers, prostitutes, dictators, etc. We do not blame their actions on the whole of the race, and you shouldn't when you are speaking about hunting either. I suppose people really do LOVE to seperate humans from the ecosystem of the world...and that cannot stand. We ARE animals, and part of the world environment just like lions, bears, mice, and bacteria. We are obviously different, and there is a gap, but because we use this world in a variety of ways, (and make mistakes) we shouldn't have every HUMAN criticized just for being human. You don't lose faith in humanity, you lose it in individuals. There are many people (including many on this forum) who are against trophy hunting, and for things that benefit animals. I would not, in any way say that the whole of humanity is evil, or headed downhill...and if we realize that we are making mistakes..we will correct them, for our own sake. That sounds selfish, but it is what motivates all animals as well.

Sorry that this post doesn't sound too elegant, or well thought out..but I'm in school..and just thougt I would make a "quick" post on the topic. So, thanks for reading all of this if you got this far..hehe. I tend to stay away from these topics because it is one of those loops that keeps appearing. Where, someone posts about something hunting related, etc..and people disagree, or agree, and it goes on the way it is..heh. There you go, finished finally! *random hugs for all*

~Kivvy

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
but who here believes poor, third world nations that are leaders in illegal weapons, drugs, etc?

Hey!...They're just supplying us 1st World countries with what we want...

And I don't know enough about this hunting situation to comment on it.

[Only-now]

Heh, actually we produce all the weapons we need here..legally..lol. Plus, those things are against the law here, while advocated over there. Africa is no where near modern, or to be considered a "good" place socially, or economically....um...or medically. I guess the best thing they have there is the culture (some of it), and the wildlife/environment.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
Heh, actually we produce all the weapons we need here..legally..lol. Plus, those things are against the law here, while advocated over there. Africa is no where near modern, or to be considered a "good" place socially, or economically....um...or medically. I guess the best thing they have there is the culture (some of it), and the wildlife/environment.

Haha...but our stuff is crap...I mean, whose coke is the best?...That's right, Columbia's.......And Africa is probably crap because it doesn't have that much to offer in ways of money, so why care about it...Iraq has more to offer...

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Scorplion
I think these people are missing the biggest problem.
Stop the humans from BREEDING.

I don't think anything on this forum has ever made me laugh so much and go WTFF at the same time.

Thank you, thank you.

Snerk.

And let us all take time to read what Kiva said, as it's important.

Kiva:
My last point I would like to say, is that criticizing humans as a whole is also terrible. I really don't like when people decide that because of a few people who make wrong choices, the entire race should be classified as evil, cruel, despicable, etc. There are also rapists, serial killers, murderers, prostitutes, dictators, etc. We do not blame their actions on the whole of the race, and you shouldn't when you are speaking about hunting either. I suppose people really do LOVE to seperate humans from the ecosystem of the world...and that cannot stand. We ARE animals, and part of the world environment just like lions, bears, mice, and bacteria. We are obviously different, and there is a gap, but because we use this world in a variety of ways, (and make mistakes) we shouldn't have every HUMAN criticized just for being human. You don't lose faith in humanity, you lose it in individuals. There are many people (including many on this forum) who are against trophy hunting, and for things that benefit animals. I would not, in any way say that the whole of humanity is evil, or headed downhill...and if we realize that we are making mistakes..we will correct them, for our own sake. That sounds selfish, but it is what motivates all animals as well.

[Only-now]

I wasn't talking about drugs for one..I was talking about weapons. I don't think there is a need to be sarcastic either. Africa is NOT a good place in the world...and I wasnt talking about money. We don't involve ourselves in countries because we want to take money from them...we are ALREADY pretty DAMN rich...and that's evident in that we give the most money to Africa to help with AIDS..but they are NEVER grateful. I would LOVE to see what would happen if we decided to be isolationists again...heh. Man, how the world would crumble. There is my "retailiatory" post!

Where did the mention of Iraq come from? Last time I checked we have lost more than we gained from attacking them...that is to say that we have spent a lot of money there (for the right reasons), and lost lives (also for the right cause) but we haven't gained money from them whatsoever...PLEASE check your facts before you try and say something sarcastic to defend illegal activities, and justify them by saying America is worse somehow. *bows* Thanks!

Oh, and thank you for your support on the other post Neph! *shakes her paw* (yes paw! There shall be no hands here!)

~Kiva

[Ghamu]

Originally posted by Only-now
You don't lose faith in humanity, you lose it in individuals.

This is not necessarily true. Misanthropes don't generally have much faith in humanity, rather in the occassional individual. =P

Originally posted by Only-now
I would LOVE to see what would happen if we decided to be isolationists again...heh. Man, how the world would crumble.

Ok.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
I wasn't talking about drugs for one..I was talking about weapons. I don't think there is a need to be sarcastic either. Africa is NOT a good place in the world...and I wasnt talking about money. We don't involve ourselves in countries because we want to take money from them...we are ALREADY pretty DAMN rich...and that's evident in that we give the most money to Africa to help with AIDS..but they are NEVER grateful. I would LOVE to see what would happen if we decided to be isolationists again...heh. Man, how the world would crumble. There is my "retailiatory" post!

Where did the mention of Iraq come from? Last time I checked we have lost more than we gained from attacking them...that is to say that we have spent a lot of money there (for the right reasons), and lost lives (also for the right cause) but we haven't gained money from them whatsoever...PLEASE check your facts before you try and say something sarcastic to defend illegal activities, and justify them by saying America is worse somehow. *bows* Thanks!

Oh, and thank you for your support on the other post Neph! *shakes her paw* (yes paw! There shall be no hands here!)

~Kiva

Well, for one, that would be considered a miscommunication stemming from the fact that you've mentioned drugs in a previous post...so excuse me for thinking it was still relevant in the topic. And yes, we do a lot to help African's with AIDs and all, but no one ever mentions going in and helping with the civil wars, terrorism, etc...I don't know, maybe the U.S. and it's allies are a little shy after Somolia. And the U.S. is rich in part by it's presence in foreign nations. And the U.S. is very willing to protect those interest, evidence of it's military presence in many nations over the last century. The U.S. does a lot of good in the world, but that still doesn't mean that the Untied States doesn't use it's powers to get what it wants.

And how, when, and where did I say America was worst than anybody? Please, enlighten me. Iraq still confuses me...I mean, weren't we suppost to be in there for weapons of mass destruction based on "slam dunk" evidence?...Now there's none of that.

And next time can we do this without the little ego trip? ie: (*bows* thanks)

[Only-now]

When I make this reply, it will probably be taken like I have nothing to reply with, but in fact, I just dont want to continue off topic, make another long post etc.

Sorry for that "ego-trip" I guess the reason I replied like that was because of your sarcasm..which made me a bit upset. You made the US look bad by saying that we went to Iraq for money, and that we ignore Africa...and that Africa is somehow justified in doing those illegal things because some people here want them.

Anyways, I won't post anymore on the topic because it will just make me, you, and other people angry. Sorry for replying the way I did..but it didn't just come randomly. I guess, I kinda wish these threads wouldnt come up because the political tension and such here is kinda what causes problems...not blaming it on anyone else..Im saying I cause them too because I can't help but argue my side.

So, I will spare this from turning into along argument..just know I still hold my point of view..and if you actually want to continue this conversation..or debate, etc..without anymore "problems" just PM me.

~Kiva

[lion_roog]

It's all good, sometimes I forget to elaborate more when I use sarcasm to try and make a point. And I forget also that it can come off as radical. But the Iraq situation bothers me because when your leaders tell you that they have all this evidence and we must stop them and then you do invade and you find practically nothing, it kinda makes you go "what...the hell?". But I hate politics and political debates...so I think I'll stop here...

Edit: And I love how a topic about people wanting to hunt lions for some population control or whatnot can turn into the United State's reasons for going to war in Iraq...

[Only-now]

Well, there is always SOME way it gets to that..hehe...oh, and I don't hate debates really..I suppose I hate when they get too intense, where someone won't listen to your side, etc. Im not saying you did that or anything, but other times I guess I am more impatient. I guess, I just hear the same stuff over and over, and when you are surrounded by it you get kinda defensive, etc.

Anyways, back on topic if anyone else has anything more to add...hehe.

[Katse]

Kiva, you're my hero for explaining my opinion in yours.

[Akiko]

Yet another thread thats wandered off topic... Anyways, I don't hate humans...and I'm sorry if it came across as such. There are a lot of humans I love, there are many people out there who, as mentioned, feel the same way and do a lot to help animals. www.defenders.org and www.friendsofanimals.org to name a few there.

The actions of some humans extremely upset me, and I find it really hard to understand how some people can act so...violent, I guess is the word that fits here. As if the only things they care for are money and themselves. :mad: Finding amusement in an innocent creature screaming in pain is sadistic and just plain wrong. Yet so many people go so far as to think animals either feel no pain or are 'here for us to use', which I disagree on strongly.

Although it's my own personal view that animals are our equals, I'd think almost anyone has to admit to the fact that they do feel pain, they do feel emotions. They're not just 'things' for us to play around with. They have their own lives, their own socities, etc.

As for the war, well...I'm not gonna go into that. All I'll say is bush is one of those people that really upsets me, for many things.

Yeah, humans are extremely overpopulated...we have little room on the earth and yet each day so many thousands of infants come into the world. I love kids, don't get me wrong on that...any infant is a gorgeous thing. It's a true and sad fact though that there are far too many humans on the earth.

In china they have rules that people can only have so many kids...however, I find that wrong too, and an invasion of people's privacy. Ah well, I'm done rambling for now anyways.

[TakaTiger]

I have that actual Article.... was in a National Geographic

[Xinithian]

Actually, when you think about it, the human population is actually extremely overpopulated. How many other animals that are the same size/mass as us have a population of 6 billion like we do? Also, we all know how much we consume every day... can you imagine over 3 billion times our daily consumption being used? It's simply unfathomable... I wish that others would realize this, and stop having so many children. I don't see why there is a need for some people to have more than 5 children. Sooner or later, our resources are going to run out if we keep reproducing at this rate.

[Ghamu]

I don't know if you've read about what happened to the Reindeer of St. Matthew Island, but that's something I'm reminded of when overpopulation is mentioned. Whether we're headed down that road as well, I guess I'll leave up to those who read the article in the link to draw what conclusions they may from it.

As for people having 5 kids or more, well, we humans typically don't think on a global scale and we generally don't consider how our choices will affect people 50 years from now (or even 5? 10?). We live in the here and now, and that's about what we can manage, I think.