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I dunno, but if you hang around the thrift shop looking sad long enough, someone might buy you a new pair of pants. :cheese:Quote:
Originally posted by nafklt
If someone was mentally ill, did they have a choice? Or was it bad genes from mommy and/or daddy? :confused:
No no, I meant if someone had some severe brain damage because his/her's dad was an alcoholic or smoker, did that person have a choice to have those brain injuries or was that choice chosen by their parents? ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Inuchance
I dunno, but if you hang around the thrift shop looking sad long enough, someone might buy you a new pair of pants. :cheese:
My Dad was mentally ill....and he didn't pass anything down to me....:D....We both were crazy for various reasons....ofcoarse, I'm still crazy and he's dead...so I must carry on the crazyness and pass it on to my sons.....:D
Maybe not to you but have you thought of your future kids...? :PQuote:
Originally posted by lion_roog
My Dad was mentally ill....and he didn't pass anything down to me....:D....We both were crazy for various reasons....ofcoarse, I'm still crazy and he's dead...so I must carry on the crazyness and pass it on to my sons.....:D
Diabetes skips a generation when passed through genes Dad-> Grandson...etc.
Hmmm....Well he was Bi-Polar and was a little schyzophrenic.....and he had a temper, not towards anyone he loved, but to people he didn't like....and he liked to hurt people he didn't like....I don't know if he had other mental illnesses, though....:cheese:Quote:
Originally posted by nafklt
Maybe not to you but have you thought of your future kids...? :P
Diabetes skips a generation when passed through genes Dad-> Grandson...etc.
Wow... Can you believe I haven't actually voted yet? :bleen:
The Authorized King James version of the Bible was translated from Greek and Hebrew by some 93 of England's best scholars during the reign of King James I of England in 1611, or so if I remember...:confused:
Just to make a little note on that, "separation of church and state" is a myth. It is not actually spoken of anywhere in the constitution of the US, so Bush can technically do anything he wants to.Quote:
Originally posted by Inuchance
As for homosexuality, if it is a choice, it's certainly not one made at any sort of conscious level... With gays being second-rate citizens in 11 of the 50 state constitutions, and with our president pushing for a constitutional ban on gay marriage (whatever happened to separation of church and state, by the way?), it's remarkable that anyone would actually CHOOSE to be gay. :confused:
Personally, I've got no real problem with it except for the fact that gays can call it marriage. It isn't.
mar?riage ('mar-ij) n
1 : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a legal, consensual, and contractual relationship recognized and sanctioned by and dissolvable only by law
I think that "gay marriage" takes away from the sanctity of a traditional marriage (between a man and woman). Sure, they should still be able to do it, but do it some other way and call it something else.
Eh, I realise that this might be a little late for me to just jump into the thread, but oh well.
Hmm, this comes up a lot in religions debates, ne? I was reading something on the same matter (homosexual erotica in the anime fandom, if you must know =P) and found this essay written by a Christian. I just took the relevant parts;Quote:
Originally posted by lion_roog
Something that confuses me is why the Bible is against homosexuals
The story of Sodom does not condemn homosexuality; it condemns violence towards strangers, inhospitality and the attempted gang-rape of angels.
The related text in Jude about 'going after strange flesh' refers to sex between humans and angels. (If you remember, sex between human women and angels had created the race of giants, and that also was seen as a very bad thing.)
Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 condemns lying with a man as with a woman as 'an abomination'. Abomination is an unfortunate translation for the Hebrew word, which means 'something which is unclean under the Purity Law.' Like eating shellfish, or touching a dead pig, it made a person ritually unclean. Since, under Grace, Christians have been released from the requirements of the Law, this does not apply to us.
Romans 1:19-32 equally refers to homosexuality as 'unclean' *not* as a sin. Paul's gist in this passage is that Gentile Idolatry lead to ritual uncleanness *and* it lead to real sin (such as envy, murder, strife, deceit etc). Paul then goes on to attack the notion that anything is unclean, and to maintain that it is only real sin which matters. In saying this, he actually places homosexuality in the category of 'things which are OK for Christians - like eating non kosher food.'
1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 are difficult to interpret because the greek words used are uncommon, and modern scholarship isn't entirely sure what they mean. But the consensus seems to be that they condemn male prostitutes (or just men who are lazy and self-obsessed) and men who prey sexually on other men, using power or money to force others to have sex with them. (Possibly they may be the clients of the prostitutes...but no one really knows.)
To assume that this is a blanket condemnation of gays is the same as assuming that a condemnation of pimps is a condemnation of all heterosexual sex.
Quote:
StalkingWolf
sorry roog, I don't believe that one bit, there is no way you can be born gay, not even if it is based on genes, that is simply a choice! I mean think about it, a baby pops out and says "waaaa, I'm gay, did ya know that!" I don't think so! they would not know that until later on, and that means that it obviously had to be a choice that they make that they are gay, later on when they even understand what that means!!"
In the same way that you cannot choose to be het when you are born. It's simply that het is what is most socially accepted, and so thought of as norm. People assume they're straight until they learn otherwise, that's all. The only reason that people don't understand what it is at a young age is because it's something that is usually hushed around them.
So yes, being homosexual is a "choice" in the same way that being heterosexual is a "choice".
I agree. "Gay" seems to be the new insult for any purpose, like "deleted" used to be used. Hmm, I guess it will become unacceptable over time, but not any time soon.Quote:
Inuchance
As for homosexuality, if it is a choice, it's certainly not one made at any sort of conscious level... With gays being second-rate citizens in 11 of the 50 state constitutions, and with our president pushing for a constitutional ban on gay marriage (whatever happened to separation of church and state, by the way?), it's remarkable that anyone would actually CHOOSE to be gay.
There seems to be a great misunderstanding and steorotyping of gay people too; any one who is gay is attracted to everyone of their own gender, and are all sexual predators. Oh, and let's not forget that we're all camp too!
People are beaten around here for being gay, and that's no choice that you want to make.
Oh, but more to the point.
Religion.
I, myself, am not religious in anyway at all. I don't like the idea of anything telling me how and what to think; I have my own mind and can make moral decision on my own, thank you.
The Bible has too many errors in for me to ever consider Christianity, and what the Roman Catholics are doing in Africa at the moment is just disgusting. The Qur'an and Torah are other matters. While I am not that familiar with the Torah, I know a Hell of a lot about the Qur'an, but neither seem to float with me. The same with the other major religions.
However, if one of them is the truth, well then I'm already on my way to Hell. *shrugs*
Some liberal Christian groups accept homosexuality, fundamentalist groups don't, and mainline groups are slicing down the middle on the whole issue.
Theoretically, smoking is a sin, as is eating at McDonalds, because both are harming your body, which is a metaphorical "Temple of God". An obsession with The Lion King can be sinful because it can sometimes be considered Idolatry. Every sin is equally hideous to God.
Christianity isn't about worrying about every little sin and what is a sin and what isn't, a century ago people were using the Bible to prove that interracial marriages were an abomination to God. People have been playing that little game for thousands of years. I'd say every person on Earth falls into at least one category of habitual sin that they may or may not realize. That's the reason Jesus died for us, to wash away our sins; thus the "scorecard" that people keep of sins should end. There's no true way of knowing exactly what is considered a sin because so many people have warped the interpretation of the Bible to fit what they want it to be. For instance, the Old Testament scripture talking about how Sodom was destroyed because of the people's homosexuality was originally interpreted as meaning not "homosexuality" but "rape or sexual indecency". Then it was interpreted as "homosexuality" and now some people are starting to interpret it as "rape or sexual indecency" again. The same can be said (in different context) about Romans and Corinthians. I truly don't know if homosexuality is a sin, frankly, I don't care, I think there's more important things to worry about when it comes to your faith.
What I see as more of a sin (if homosexual behavior is a sin) is how the vast (not anyone here that I know of) majority of Christians handle it. They claim the logic behind tormenting homosexual people as being acceptable because they think the act is against God. Now, I'm not a biblical expert, but I think that God looks down upon the mental and physical abuse of another person. People who do that give Christians a bad name and I'm sure that being mean to a person in the name of Christianity isn't going to make them enthusiastic about becoming one or staying one.
Call me liberal, but I follow the overall meaning of the Bible before anything else. I believe that you should trust Jesus with the forgiveness of your sins, love your neighbor and fellow man (man meaning mankind, not male), don't judge others, and follow the 10 Commandments to the best of your ability; in that general order. You aren't ever going to be completely sure whether evolution is true, homosexuality is a sin, if women are equal to men, if Adam and Eve were real or if they were metaphors, etc... until you ask God yourself in Heaven. Seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that sometimes people worry more about the little details when they plenty to keep them busy worrying about the more important things, and that's where hypocrisy starts.
Well, feel free to rip on anything I said, religious debates are always dangerous topics on boards with a vast difference of people.
*Edit* Um... yeah, guess Neph beat me to it. I agree with her on the first half.:)
Hmm... very interesting theories you have Neph, I'll have to look mor einto those passages.
pntbll also has really good points. No one, I repeat, no one, should ever be persecuted by a christian, or the church. It goes against everything the New Testament says.
Also, someone mentioned slavery, I think it was Inuchance. First you must understand the time period of which the Bible was being written and what was going on. Back then slaves were 100% okay, no one thought badly of it. God condemned the slavery in Eygpt though. And after they were freed, God gave certain rules to all of the people, including the slaves. All of which needed to be treated a certain way.
Chrrrristian
Hmm, another thought; isn't it that God hates sin, not sinners?
i think so :confused:
That's true. Since everyone sins, he can't hate everyone he created. But I believe that it is every Christian's duty to avoid sinning to the best of their ability, because to do less is to show one's insincerity of belief.Quote:
Originally posted by Nephilim
Hmm, another thought; isn't it that God hates sin, not sinners?
I like the points you make, Neph. I never really studied those parts of the Bible as much as others. To me, the most important parts of the Bible seem to be the first four books of the New Testament.
I like the points you make, Pntbll. My view of a sin is anything you believe is a sin is a sin. I forgot where in the Bible is says that you are judged based on your conscience because youconsciously know what is a sin and what isn't a sin...so people who do not know they are sinning are not actually sinning.
I just noticed this post.Quote:
Originally posted by StalkingWolf
lion_roog, Simba '04 is right, you cannot be born gay, no one is, that is a free-will choice, like you said God gave us freedom of choice, and those who are homo, heterosexual, etc. have chosen that way of life! However, the Bible says, God created woman for man, and that there was to be a union between them! It never says anywhere in the Bible that man was created for man, or woman for woman, and if it does and you can find it, PLEASE enlighten me, cause I don't believe in that one bit!
I'd watch what I say, there's people on this forum you wouldn't think were homosexual or bisexual and I'm sure that would be taken offensively.
well if anyone is offended by that, sorry! But until someone can prove it otherwise and show me somewhere in the Bible where it says that is ok, then I will think twice, only problem is its not there, so my opinion still stays!!!!
As does mine
Maybe you should ask a homosexual or bisexual person sometime their opinion on whether you're born like that or if it's a choice.
Regardless, it's a non-issue to me. There's as many different forms of christianity as there are people who follow it. Some groups see homosexuality as ok, some don't, some don't know, and some don't care. There's some who think homosexual people should be beaten, tortured, and hanged (Christian Reformists International) and some factions which are almost entirely homosexual or bisexual (Metropolin Community Church www.jesus.com). There's one thing that unites all of them, and that's the fact that they follow Christ. If only one group is right and if that means only one group can attain salvation, then it's a guessing game and not the grace of God. I think God casts his net a bit wider than we as humans do.
Like me?Quote:
Originally posted by pntbll248
Maybe you should ask a homosexual or bisexual person sometime their opinion on whether you're born like that or if it's a choice.
Choosing your sexual orientation isn't like choosing your friends. It's not like one ever sits down and says, "Will I find this person/gender attractive?" Sure, a decision on which gender to go with has to be made at one point, and it's entirely possible that a gay person could be involved in a heterosexual relationship, but overall, no one ever 'chooses' to be gay.Quote:
Originally posted by StalkingWolf
sorry roog, I don't believe that one bit, there is no way you can be born gay, not even if it is based on genes, that is simply a choice! I mean think about it, a baby pops out and says "waaaa, I'm gay, did ya know that!" I don't think so! they would not know that until later on, and that means that it obviously had to be a choice that they make that they are gay, later on when they even understand what that means!!"
And, a baby doesn't have any sexual urges for the longest time. The realization of being gay happens around puberty, when you begin to see things somewhat differently and begin making choices based on your own preferences, rather than choosing what best fits in with society. It's never a "hey, I think I'll be gay!" type of thing, it's more of a "Everyone says I should be looking at this gender, but I instead catch myself looking at the other gender instead."
Remember that God himself did not come down from Heaven and write the Bible. The Book is still human-interpretation of His word, and it shows. I think it is foolish to make decisions based on a single text, and even moreso to write legislation over it.Quote:
Originally posted by StalkingWolf
well if anyone is offended by that, sorry! But until someone can prove it otherwise and show me somewhere in the Bible where it says that is ok, then I will think twice, only problem is its not there, so my opinion still stays!!!!
While you may personally choose not to participate in it (and, not being attracted to those of the same gender, it's very easy for you to do so), these sorts of mindsets can cause trouble when you begin enforcing those beliefs on others by, for example, voting for a state amendment banning gay marriage. I think the decision to get married should be between the couple wishing to get married, not between a couple and the law.
The way the US government was designed was for people to be as free as possible, without infringing upon the rights of others. The constitution was designed to preserve freedoms for the people, not restrict them. How does a gay couple getting married infringe upon anyone's rights?
People are screaming about the sanctity of marriage over this issue, but have nothing to say over the increasing divorce rates. Renaming gay marriage to something like "civil unions" are equitable to the separate water fountains they used to have for black and white people. Even though they're essentially the same, and both serve the same purpose, for one to be named differently creates a feeling of inadequacy and separates the two groups into separate classes; it discriminates between the two. To do something like that would be unconstitutional.
I don't see why it's okay for discrimination of one group to be socially acceptable just because the dominant religion in that region says it's okay.