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right, yet they fail to see they can just devide their land/money/property/etc by themselves?... they arn't babies, they don't need the government to babysit them ...
example: they have a cake, they each want part of the cake, they cut the cake in half and each take half... where in that do they need the government to come in and tell them how to cut the cake?....
The law cannot change Christianity.. nor is it trying to. Church is not the only place you can get married.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
against, for if the bill is passed, what are they going to do? force themselves on the church to marry them... ... basically it'll be a bill on trying to change the christian faith... if it is passed, the church I go to, and any good christian church will still refuse to marry them... against the law or not, these laws cannot change christianity...
And they will, if they really want to.Quote:
they might as well perform it themselves
Okaaaaay, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. If two people are IN LOVE, regardless of gender, it WILL last.Quote:
so much for traditions eh?
hm... I wonder why they would need a law then... just get their friends together, perform a marrage then go home without care weither or not the gevernment thinks they are or arn't... (they don't even need a anyone with any sort of marriage license ...) ... I mean they can just go up to some guy/girl in the street and say alright you, marry these two together... ... hm... seems to me like a marriage means absolutly nothing to those whom would go that way... might as well not waste time and energy on it... besides, it won't last anyways...
Speaking from experience...Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
right, yet they fail to see they can just devide their land/money/property/etc by themselves?... they arn't babies, they don't need the government to babysit them ...
example: they have a cake, they each want part of the cake, they cut the cake in half and each take half... where in that do they need the government to come in and tell them how to cut the cake?....
Never underestimate the ability for adults to turn into babies, particularly in messy divorces where petty arguments become a part of everyday life.
If people (both homosexual and heterosexual) didn't need the goverment to tell them how to divide cake, there'd be no need for state common property laws.
Homosexuality is a sin?
"1 Peter 4:8 And above all things be earnest in your love among yourselves, for love covers a multitude of sins."
I was just listing up one thing atop another, oh, this is here, and such and such is happening oh, this is there too, aw the heck with it it's not going to last anyways why bother ... you know... kind of the 'chain of excuses' thing...Quote:
Originally posted by Sombolia
Okaaaaay, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. If two people are IN LOVE, regardless of gender, it WILL last.
and @nephilim: 1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Uh, I think people need to realize that Christians do not own marriage. Christianity does not own marriage. Islam does not own marriage, nor does Judaism. Marriage in the terms that're being discussed refers to legal marriage (ie, do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband?) and the legal protections therein. A church would not be required to marry a gay couple, though some may opt to because some don't have a problem with it, because that's a religious ceremony. Usually, in America, the mayor, judge, and/or a few other members of the county can legally marry a couple. Such a marriage belongs to the human race, not any religion.
exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...
I thow my hands up at it all, really, if you wish to sin, go ahead, no matter what the sin you wish to do is... It isn't my business to "take the twig from the eye of another, before removing the log from my own eye" (located somewhere in the bible... I think 'romans') in other words, until I am without fault I cannot go judging another of their own (in other words 'never' as no one will ever be 'perfect') sure, I can give advice, and take advice from another, but it is up to the other weither to heed or not...
Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.
Now you're starting to annoy me just a tad. I think you could have done without that last paragraph, but the book you're looking for is Matthew.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...
I thow my hands up at it all, really, if you wish to sin, go ahead, no matter what the sin you wish to do is... It isn't my business to "take the twig from the eye of another, before removing the log from my own eye" (located somewhere in the bible... I think 'romans')
As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.
Marriage doesn't work like that, anywhere...You can't say "I am now married to so-n-so..." because that is not legally binding. It doesn't work that way. The only difference between getting married in a church and married out of the church, sans the religious part of the ceremony, is the fact that instead of a priest, rabbi, etc (who may be required to be certified depending on where you live) you are married by a certified or licensed public official.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...
Just because you're married outside of church doesn't mean that the marriage is pointless, or any less meaningful than if you were married in a church.. and no, you can't just say "Hey let's be married!", you do need someone to preform the marriage, whether it's a priest or a judge or whoever. The church does not own marriage.. when was marriage "put in the place with the church"?Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...
And you're right on the last point. If I'm not a Christian- and I'm not- why should I be expected to follow the rules of Christiananity? Only I get the feeling with your statement, you were being sarcastic..
yes, I know, and I don't mean to annoy, I just mean to say, it isn't my business to try to change anything or force anything upon another, I guess the phrase 'wash my hand of the subject' would have been more fitting to say... (although they mean the same)Quote:
Now you're starting to annoy me just a tad. I think you could have done without that last paragraph, but the book you're looking for is Matthew.
As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.
in the same sense no one can expect to win a race without first starting.
Right, but you have to believe something is binding for it to be so... I personally think 'Love'/'marriage'/etc are something extremely speacial that only be obtained through constant and never ending devotion to the other.Quote:
Marriage doesn't work like that, anywhere...You can't say "I am now married to so-n-so..." because that is not legally binding. It doesn't work that way. The only difference between getting married in a church and married out of the church, sans the religious part of the ceremony, is the fact that instead of a priest, rabbi, etc (who may be required to be certified depending on where you live) you are married by a certified or licensed public official.
yes, but still there is belief in it... otherwise there'd be no need for a person to be there to perform the marriage...Quote:
Originally posted by Sombolia
Just because you're married outside of church doesn't mean that the marriage is pointless, or any less meaningful than if you were married in a church.. and no, you can't just say "Hey let's be married!", you do need someone to preform the marriage, whether it's a priest or a judge or whoever. The church does not own marriage.. when was marriage "put in the place with the church"?
And you're right on the last point. If I'm not a Christian- and I'm not- why should I be expected to follow the rules of Christiananity? Only I get the feeling with your statement, you were being sarcastic..
also, the marriage thing was put into place with the church in the old testament in the book of leviticus
also, I was semi sarcastic, semi not... basically, why would you need a church anyways? if you don't believe in anything the church teaches.
Which has nothing to do directly with Christianity as constant and never ending devotion is a universal attribute, not one that is specific with Christianity or any other religion.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
Right, but you have to believe something is binding for it to be so... I personally think 'Love'/'marriage'/etc are something extremely speacial that only be obtained through constant and never ending devotion to the other.
And belief can only take you so far in the legal world...if you marry someone and choose not to believe in the sanctity of that marriage...it's still a legal contract which you must abide by (or face the consequences of you actions) no matter what you believe.
You don't need a church, that's the point.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
also, I was semi sarcastic, semi not... basically, why would you need a church anyways? if you don't believe in anything the church teaches.
that's good advice...the only problem with advice is that it's not guaranteed to be good and may become a tool to mislead.Quote:
Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
until I am without fault I cannot go judging another of their own (in other words 'never' as no one will ever be 'perfect') sure, I can give advice, and take advice from another, but it is up to the other weither to heed or not...
Here's some good advice...:cheese:
Matthew 7:1-2
"Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you"
^ Very good advice roog. I always wondered where that verse was found.
I know plenty of people in male-male relationships. I'm not the first to say it but:
If you are a man and you believe that being gay is a lifestyle choice, try making that choice. For 5 minutes. Be attracted to guys for 5 minutes.
Biologically speaking being or becoming gay is normal. Surely a rare thing to happen. Perhaps a positively silly accident in nature's choice, but still essentially a product of nature. It is in conflict with the numbers of the norm, but that's about it.
Moral, beliefs, and ethics just don't apply.
Using the bible as your tool of trade if you're the bible-thumping type you can practically prove or rebute anything (in your interest) whatsoever by quoting out of it.
But while I do respect your beliefs and religion, you will need to come up with insightful arguments of your own.
I also have the same respect for anyone who's wants to have sex 'just because'. If it's their idea of fun, so be it, regardless of gender.
I'd mew Yes - to gay / lesbian / whatever marriage. Luckily it is legal in many countries already.
And now I should actually participate more on this board, I'm rarely if ever around. =^_^= But I'll go play in another thread. Seeya!
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
Your post sounds like one big logical fallicy to me...:DQuote:
Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
Um, did you read what I wrote 5 minutes earlier?Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
You aren't born gay.
no you did not :@Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
What makes a person straight? You werent born straight, You were born knowing NOTHING of the world, your PARENTS, and TEACHERS taught you everythign you needed to know how to survive...
And sorry to say, but that was VERY rude..
*When I say your, I do not mean you Ashara, I mean every human being on the world.
You don't choose to be gay; you're right- why would you? You wouldn't. It just happens.Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
"I think I've always been bisexual. I mean, it's something that I've always been interested in. I think everybody kind of fantasizes about the same sex. I think people are born bisexual, and it's just that our parents and society kind of veer us off into this feeling of 'Oh, I can't.' They say it's taboo. It's ingrained in our heads that it's bad, when it's not bad at all. It's a very beautiful thing."
I am unsure about the possibility of being born gay. I would need to see some documentation on that fact. As for me...... *stops in mid sentence*
Just about everyone is bisexual to some degree. Really everyone. And you are born with the scale tipped one way or another. From the getgo, you either start out being bisexual, straight or gay. As everyone else.
There are many more people straight and "normal" of course. I already wrote that the scale being tipped the other way is a more rare thing to happen.
Your life experiences helps to add up to how it turns out for you. But you will never - at no point in your life - actively decide to just ... stop being gay, stop being straight, stop being bisexual. It's not a choice thing. It's natural.
One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:
That's kind of a silly argument, considering how HIV/AIDS doesn't discriminate. O_oQuote:
Originally posted by lionloversam
One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:
That is a good point, wicked. I guess the argurment behind that statement is that individuals leading alternitive lifestyles are more likely to catch the illness. I am really confusing myself...
Chances of catching the Aids and other illnesses are most likely on you when you are:
Being poor (as in - not having the money to afford protection and/or education required for the following steps).
Being undereducated as in:
1. Not checking with a doctor for the illness on yourself at the right time (meaning prior to having sex with anyone).
2. Not asking your partner if they have seen a doctor for check-up, either, because you want to be nice and it's a sensitive topic.
3. Having sex with no protection (regardless).
And lastly, though I don't have statistics or something to aid the statement, I mean that people who know their way around this topic (those "life-stylers") are are probably less likely to be infected.
[ http://www.avert.org/historyi.htm .] Maybe that'll help.
@Jammet: I do agree, there are homosexual tendencies within us .
Hahahaha.Quote:
Originally posted by lionloversam
One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:
Heterosexual partners can get AIDS, too.
It's actually not your choise what you find attractive, which makes homosexual people like the same sex as they are more then the opposite. there is also prove that no one is complealy streight or fully gay, just finding same or opposite sex more attractive then the other. I can honestly say I have never feel attraction the same sex then I am, yet I can't say either that could never happen, but sinse I'm in love and in relationship I strongly doubt it as long as it last.Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
so actually gay people have born that way. And they have as many reason to find same sex attractive as streight people have opposite sex. Not giving gay people right to get married is kind of racism even, sinse everyone should have a right to search for happiness which marriage gives for some people. who are we to take away that happiness? I do say no one.
This post was reported to me. As far as I can tell, you're not breaking any board rules, but I wanted you to know that some members are finding your post offensive. I know this is your opinion and you have every right to it but I do find that last bit a tad bit rude and rudeness just isn't cool. :eww:Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
Thank you.
And now back to your regularly scheduled debate. :evilgrin:
I totally agree with this.Quote:
Originally posted by pntbll248
As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.
And have nothing more to add eather, hehe.
Agreeing with pntbll248, don't wanna fight, reading some of your so-called christian s... makes me wanna explode, so hurray to everyone, gay, non gay, christian, non christian, as long as you don't try to force someone into believeing what you do - so tell me, has a gay person ever forced anyone into being gay? Never happened to me...Has a religious person ever tried to force me into being as religious as he or she was - oh yes, too many times...
Whoa, how can you know that? I'm tired of people saying that like it's a fact. I want people with your opinion to answer my questions I've already asked before:Quote:
Originally posted by Ashara
You aren't born gay.
But yet, people who think like you on this issue never have anything to say about it.Quote:
Originally posted by Sharifu
Why would you choose to be gay? Homosexuals have a hard enough time being excepted, and are looked down upon. If you had the choice, why would you choose that? Doesn't that make sense?
Since apparently everyone was born straight here...how come not everyone was born with the same amount of tolerance...
And agreeing with Sharifu, why do you just oversee some posts that make a good point instead of answering, come, let us make a debate...
Posted by A-non-a-mus:
"love is no sin, and yes, 'love your neighbor as yourself' ... (but you wouldn't have a romantic relationship with yourself now would you?)
Being gay is sexually immoral... and it is said in th bible multiple times...you are a christian right? ... I'm not going to be calling you a bad one or anything, however, it is stated in the bible, 'acceptence of a sin is just as bad as commiting it' ...
Love is no sin, then again, 'gay' and 'love' are not the same context as how you are saying... God is love, God is also without sin, homosexuality/sexual immorality is a sin, therefore cannot be of God or from God, and henceforth is not love."
Why is being gay sexually immoral - cause the Bibel says so?!?!?! Ok, no comment on that one anymore - seems like our own head doesn't stand there for thinking but for folowing rules.
Gay people are called that way cause they either like or love people of the same gender...so...why can't we use gay and love together? :browlift:
Why, who told you homosexuality is a sin? Did God step down from his kingdom and tell you that?
Btw, to the sex thing, goes to those who think it's only that special moment of love that is "used" for reproduction (I'm sorry but it just won't leave me alone); Have you ever experienced it at all?
So very true hun. I have never experinced a gay person trying to force me into being bi or lesbian, whereas three friends so far ahve tried to force religion ionto me. Although most of the time they are only thinking of me, they want me to share in their eternal glory in Heaven too. Which is really touching, but.. I'm too much of a scientist and athetist. Go Big Bang!Quote:
Originally posted by Zaya
Agreeing with pntbll248, don't wanna fight, reading some of your so-called christian s... makes me wanna explode, so hurray to everyone, gay, non gay, christian, non christian, as long as you don't try to force someone into believeing what you do - so tell me, has a gay person ever forced anyone into being gay? Never happened to me...Has a religious person ever tried to force me into being as religious as he or she was - oh yes, too many times...
Anywho back on topic - people don't choose to be gay. To them its a natural transition from feeling nothing apart from friendship to another person, to feeling attraction. Its as natural as straight people sudenly feeling attraction to the opposite sex.
For myself, I am straight but sometimes find myself heavily attracted to females. It just happens and I aint fighting Nature when Nature made me the way I am :p
People can't be forced to become straight just because being gay is a *taboo*. So therefore, gay people have the right to marry their gay partners just the same as straight people.
I get sick and tired of people who are against gays. Its just as bad as discrimminating against females, black people or Asian people. If we are going to succeed in being broad-minded, perhaps we should allow other humans, that are only different from us by sexuality, to marry their chosen partners.
End of rant
:D
The last thing I am going to say...and this has been studied scientifically etc:
1) Gay marriage will ruin the traditional family
2) The institution of marriage as a union will be destroyed as well
I dont know if many of you know, but it IS a known fact that gay couples and people are MUCH more sexually permiscous than straight couples. In fact, thousands of studies have shown that gay people have a VERY high amount of sexual partners in their lifetimes...to the extent of even hundreds. Obviously, you have to think about when this combines with what marriage is supposed to be...a union for life. There would be a HUGE amount of divorce because of this fact...and so it would ruin what marriage is supposed to mean.
3) Coutries that have already legalized it have shown that it DOES NOT WORK. There are people getting married to multiple people..one female one male etc...or getting married for a very short time much more often. Allowing this will lead to even more outrageous demands..in many areas..that will further destroy marriage.
4) The gay "rights" community and others..because this is what activists do, has been known to always increase the demands after one is reached. So, anyone can expect to see MORE demands after marriage is reached.
I personally looked this up..because I was looking for support for my side. I know that anyone who opposes this is outnumbered here..and it is natural to search for support...but deep down..and because I trust my parents..who are older then I and wiser...I feel that it would result in consequences that we would not want to experience...and that people who support it are not looking towards at this moment.
They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case. It isn't about recieving the rights that marriage provides..but more that they want to purposely achieve this union because they want society to recognize them as normal. It is NOT about their relationship...nor religion..just as it isn't when two straight people get married. They want to force society to recognize their relationship as normal..and the cold fact is that it ISN'T normal..and it ISN'T natural.
~Kiva
There are critique of the etiological basis of people that are born with same-sex orientation. A big portion relates to mapped chromosomes and heredity. So people have a good chance of being born gay as it were.Quote:
Originally posted by Sharifu
Whoa, how can you know that? I'm tired of people saying that like it's a fact. I want people with your opinion to answer my questions I've already asked before:
Okay, I'm not even touching "points" #1 and #2.
Do you honestly think the US government isn't going to notice if people marry multiple people? As for gays having short marriages.. There are just as many straight couples getting married for ridiculously short amounts of time here.Quote:
3) Coutries that have already legalized it have shown that it DOES NOT WORK. There are people getting married to multiple people..one female one male etc...or getting married for a very short time much more often. Allowing this will lead to even more outrageous demands..in many areas..that will further destroy marriage.
Okay, obviously I can't speak for everyone, but everyone I know wants equality, not special treatment. What more demands could they ask for?Quote:
4) The gay "rights" community and others..because this is what activists do, has been known to always increase the demands after one is reached. So, anyone can expect to see MORE demands after marriage is reached.
lolz. Are you saying that gays are treated fairly? Because, hey, they're not. Is it wrong to want be looked upon as "normal" by society, really? Or would you really rather be discriminated against?Quote:
They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case. It isn't about recieving the rights that marriage provides..but more that they want to purposely achieve this union because they want society to recognize them as normal. It is NOT about their relationship...nor religion..just as it isn't when two straight people get married. They want to force society to recognize their relationship as normal..and the cold fact is that it ISN'T normal..and it ISN'T natural.
You say that it isn't natural, or normal.. but that's an opinion, not a "cold fact". That is something religion says, and you can't prove that the bible is true or that God exists; right now it's just something you believe in.
If you go trough history...a similar thing happened with the first interracial marriages...do you feel that being with a person of a different race is bad? No? Well, some time ago, they said it will destroy the world...but did it?
As for the recognition of homosexual people...doesn't everyone want to be recognized, to be respected? And I think, everyone deserves it.
“They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case.”
Hmmmm....that is not the case? Well, you seem to be treating them unfairly since you describe them as NOT normal.
What is normal? What is natural? We each have our own definition of it, some guided by religion, other by their own good judgement :)