Well excuse me for being away for a week and not being able to defend some things.
Geesh, no wonder I didn't miss this place after 3 days of being gone ... *rolls eyes*
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Well excuse me for being away for a week and not being able to defend some things.
Geesh, no wonder I didn't miss this place after 3 days of being gone ... *rolls eyes*
No I'm not brushing anyone off, I'm just stating... "That's the way things are," ... If the concerns are overwhelming enough, I suggest a decisive solution, because I haven't any to work with, just complaints is all I'm hearing...Quote:
Originally posted by pntbll248
Now I'm sorry, but posts like that just seem like you're brushing us off. That's our whole point, bud, it's like some of the staff is throwing their weight around. Howabout instead of saying "This is the way the hierarchy works" and "However you want to feel, that's fine with me", you actually address our concerns? That would seem like the more appropriate, concerned thing to do. Actions speak louder than words, if the staff says it's not a matter of "I can do some things you can't", but they portray a different feeling in each thread, then I think the latter will be an indication of how they really feel.
I have offered a decisive solution: When a thread is closed, it is closed. Not just closed to members, it's not gonna be an opportunity for a staff member to get in a cute little remark, give their two cents, or otherwise say something other than the initial reason why the thread was closed; if they choose to do so, reopen the thread. That's common sense, guys, and that's the solution.
If you have somethign to say, say it while the thread's open. If, in order to keep with that rule of thumb you have to reopen the thread, then do so.
And Nathalie, no one blamed you for an opinion, we just get irked when your opinion can't be discussed like the rest of us. None of this is an attack, it's a plea for reason.
How, Mature of the mods to say they deserve to be one step ahead of the members once again, "We deserve more rights then you and should be allowed to excercise those rights" Is all I heard in Sonique's posts. Basically being told. "We're better than you, so we deserve more than you.Quote:
Originally posted by nathalie
Well excuse me for being away for a week and not being able to defend some things.
Geesh, no wonder I didn't miss this place after 3 days of being gone ... *rolls eyes*
Didn't people just say "Moderators and Members should be viewed as one"? If viewed as one, don't you think that should be "equal" not different, Rights.
I'll say this, I think the mods could post in closed topics AS LONG AS THEY DON'T TRY TO START ANYTHING. Or CARRY ON ANY ON GOING CONVERSATIONS. If you are going to post in a closed topic, I don't think you should give you're views, you're opinions, or ANYTHING. Since we can't do the same thing. The post should just contain "Might be reopened later" or something relevant to that.
And moderators of a certain subforum can edit, delete, merge, and post in closed topics, Super Mods such as yourself Sonique, can edit and post in any Closed thread. If you are given a certain responsibility as to Moderate a Forums. Don't post somewhere where the member you post about can not defend himself. thats the Main point threads like the "Thanks Neph" Thread was created. If you want to post anything and you posted you're opinion, at least open it so that person you addressed can at least have a chance to defend him or herself.
Thats what I think about this.. Stuff oO
~KTL
... And my common sense tells me that you'll have to get over it, because that's the way it is....Quote:
Originally posted by pntbll248
I have offered a decisive solution: When a thread is closed, it is closed. Not just closed to members, it's not gonna be an opportunity for a staff member to get in a cute little remark, give their two cents, or otherwise say something other than the initial reason why the thread was closed; if they choose to do so, reopen the thread. That's common sense, guys, and that's the solution.
Whoa, what in all is happening in here... :eww:
I thought the mods were doing just great.
......or maybe that's just because I'm new? :confused:
Well... you know something Nuka... I might just take your advice on some things, you are very wise my friend....
Shows how much the Moderators really care about possibly changing to make this place a better place than it already is :) Yeah if you want to consider that an attack, do so. But in my own words, it came from the heart, and thats how I'm seeing this right now.Quote:
Originally posted by Sonkakee
... And my common sense tells me that you'll have to get over it, because that's the way it is....
To me it seems as if "Some" Moderators don't really care for change here, and to see that theres a problem here. And those are the Mods that I find should /not/ even /be/ Moderators. As Moderators it's your Job to listen to what we have to say, and to help the boards be a better place, even if it means sacrificing a little bit of you're powers for the good of us all. It wont be all, Aww I just lost some power, I can' tpost in closed topics anymore.. I'ma go cry now.
Well guess what, Some of us Don't have the right to post there, and some of us get really aggrivated when you Moderators (Some not all) POST in something thats closed, and urk us so much, by YOUR opinions and some of which ARENT true, And we can't even MAKE A MOVE as to defend ourselves like here Haha what happened to that thread being reopened?
I just really like how Sonique calls his own forums "Immature"
Notice the attacks and flames that were sent to me in the first few pages, Did I get a chance to defend myself? pft no.
But a Moderator sure got the chance to call us immature. Does that not show you anything!? I sense the presence of insecurity in that thread.
You said everyone had the right to voice their opinions in that thread Sonique, We can't have that right if you close it.
~KTL
Oh... yes.... I had plans to reopen that thread, but why? Since all we can do is flame each other when it comes to insurmountable things. But Hell, who am I to judge. And if all you guys is want to complain about the way things are; I say, you made it that way too... So if you don't like the way I do things make a complaint (as I said time and time again...) Anyway... we have listened time and time again, we haven't a resolution, just a ball of complaints.... Now I think we shall devise it ourselves... and see how that goes.... In the meantime, feel free to nitpick.......
^_^'
*sighs* I cannot believe it is THIS hard for people to run and post on a FORUM. It is the INTERNET for God's sakes!
Alright, one the mods are not evil people who want to abuse their power. They never said they were better than anyone etc. I am not saying they don't do anything wrong, but don't try to make them look evil. After all, that is seperating them from members once again...which is exactly what you (KTL) just used as an example of what the mods are doing..but that is doing it in itself.
That brings me to my next point. My personal view on this issue, is that mods should keep their power, but they are using it in the wrong way. I don't think that the majority of mods here are posting in closed topics like so because they want the last word etc. I think they are just using the power they have to just post what they think. Basically, the quote "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes in here. They are just posting their view, but they are in essence doing something that IS wrong.
A Mod should not close a discussion about something because people are arguing..and THEN post their own views in the topic, mentioing people, etc without others being able to respond. If my above statement about mods doing it blindly isnt the case, and they are actually closing the thread to post their view without getting flamed, then that IS wrong. I am not one who thinks the mods are evil, or different than us. Mods are members, and should play by the same rules in terms of etiquette (sp?). Of course we give them powers to moderate, and some things the members DO have to live with....but posting in a closed thread about a discussion is like having a debate where one candidate isn't allowed to answer. Not to mention..WHY would you do that unless you wanted the last word? The more I write this, the more I tend to think the mods are doing something wrong here. You have a mod forum, PMs, and IMs. If you want to discuss a closed thread then do it there, not in the same thread you closed where no one can respond.
I hope everyone knows that I am not totally agianst the mods or anything. I take the side of which I think is right, and in this case it is the members. There needs to be a stop to this tension filled gap between mods and members. Members need to lay off of making the mods seem so evil, because they really aren't/ Personally KTL, it seems like you do not agree with anything the mods do..and you tend to just argue with or point out their faults all the time. I don't think that is the way to mend anything. Pnt, I always admire how you handle it because you tend to focus on the issue and not the group..and that is a good thing.
All in all, the mods need to listen to the public on certain issues, and the public needs to learn to deal with decisions they do not like sometimes. If these are done, I think that Lea's atmosphere will definitely improve.
~Kiva
Indeed. That's what exactly I was trying to do. But people tend to misinterpret it as something else. But that's to be expected, after all; if that's all you are looking for, that's all you're going to see. And I have offered to reopen any thread if need be, or just for an instance, which no-one else would probably do. But... well.... hmm....... =/Quote:
Originally posted by Only-now
I don't think that the majority of mods here are posting in closed topics like so because they want the last word etc. I think they are just using the power they have to just post what they think. Basically, the quote "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" comes in here.
I didn't say it was all the memebers fault at all, but I am 100% that most of the "problems" on this thread do come from the members and NOT the mods. Them being members applies in some situations and not others. Since they are mods, but are also members, I guess we should all have the same powers as them as well then? That isn't how I meant it to come across.
Also, I do NOT think that there is a huge problem with the mods whatsoever. I think that there are a few select people who either have a personal issue with the mods from something they did, or a mistake a mod made, or do not like authority. KTL had a problem with the mods, Pnt had one, etc. You two both have had your own problems with the mods, whether it was your or the mods mistake doesnt matter. It doesn't seem like many people. including myself, have been hurt by the mods,or thier policies. I don't think the majority of Lea is suffering. You know, Scar's Lair is the only place where all these problem threads come from, and members get in trouble etc. This is the forum with the widest variety of topics, some which are hot ones that inspire debate. That would mean that more members are going go step over the line, mods are going to be more strict, and sometimes be a little rash because of the aura of this particular forum. All the other forums are doing just fine. The majority of the members don't have a problem with the mods at all. That isn't to say that they don't make mistake, or need to change things (as evident with me agreeing with pnt, and KTL in the "reporting" thread), but they are not in serious need of changing. I wonder if anyone here realizes that I am a member, and not a mod. I never got into any trouble that wasn't a disagreement I could handle. Of course, there are times when I disagree with what a mod is saying, or their decision, but people ARE making this seem like it is a forum-wide issue and it isnt. That is what I mean by being dramatic. Have any of you ever thought that maybe the way you handle yourself, etc may affect how the mods treat you, or why you feel like the mods are so against you? I feel like I have to fight both "sides" of this now. In one thread I have to agree with what some of the members are saying, and in the other, I agree with the mods. In all seriousness, I think that the quality of Lea's members has gone down since I joined. We used to not have or NEED mods until new members who spam, break the rules, curse, post outrageous topics, etc joined. Now, look at what is happening...SOMEHOW the mods have become "evil people" who are power hungry. Somehow, these same people who were picked as mods and are excellent members are now SO different, and bad and I guess the new members have NOTHING to do with that right? It is ALL the mods fault, and they are just out to get you. *sighs* Nothing lasts forever...
~Kiva
Sonique...if I were you, I would concede to the members here. They are not acking for a lot at all. There is no reason why you NEED to be able to post about a topic after you close the thread. Basically, that is only going to make it seem like you are trying to use your power to get your way, and if that isn't the case, then I wouldn't go down that path. I know the mods are not evil people who just want to control Lea, but doing something like so, even if you didn't mean it in a bad way, comes off as one. If you want to post in a closed topic, then say something about why it was closed etc..but avoid the issue the topic is about unless the topic is open for everyone to discuss. Do you see what I am saying? They have a point that once a topic is closed, it should be closed for everyone. Take a look at the other thread about moderators to see what I think about the whole issue here...which isn't as big a deal as it seems. If you are wrong, just admit you are...and I think you are a smart enough person to see where we are coming from.
~Kiva
good lord, they arent moderators for nothing.
Look, I'm seeing a staff member tell members to get over it when they have brought up a perfectly valid concern. Now, I think that only furthers our beliefs that there's an issue here that needs addressed. If someone, member or staff, thinks they can tell someone else to just "Get over it" and that'll be that, they're sadly mistaken. Now please, do not tell us to get over it again, we have not attacked you and we have not said you're a bad person or something; we have only raised a concern. This is something that is important to us, and we'd appreciate a little more than "Get over it"; I'm more than willing to talk it over and reach an agreement, but saying "Get over it" just isn't gonna cut it.
At one of the forums I moderate at, we don't have any problems regarding mods vs. members, and I tihnk I know why.
It's the fact that the mods here are just a little too picky...
Don't close a thread as a first defense if people are arguing....Let them resolve it through PM first, and if they don't, then you can and should lock the thread....and don't post in a thread after it's been locked. That's just lording it over us, and that's unfair.
I agree with others that have said Mufasa and Sarabi need to return. Nathalie's great and all, but we need other admins too. She's just one person.
Sarabi resigned. :(
We all wish Muffy could return full time, but he is a busy man.
Sombody mentioned that they feel that we have to many more mods now then we did before. However, in reality, we have less. Nuka, Boos, and Sarabi resigned, Fuzzy and Ghalati have severe RL problems to deal with, and Muffy and Ngatny are barely active anymore. STM also has to deal with school and Sharifu has ongoing computer problems. That leave 5 or 6 fully active mods.
BTW, and this is to everybody, we will never get anywhere if we sit here argueing about argueing.
Sarabi resigned? Really? O_O'
When did that happen?
ok...
First of all. Don't generalize how moderators are. We are all as own persons ase everyone else in this world, so please stop saying " Moderators this, Moderators that" because it is just going to make those mad who have done nothing.
Second. Threads like "thanks Neph" and such shouldn't be allowed. no matter who is it about, the case is not that Neph is moderator, the thing is that public humiliation is not allowed in here or at least that is what I think. such a things can be done via MSN, Yahoo, Email or PM's.
Third. I agree with a lot of people that moderators/admins should add their opinions on closed threads, but if they have something to add the reason why it's closed it should be ok. Sometimes moderators can post closed threads in an axcident tho, sinse the only diffrence is that "Post Reply" mark says " thread closed " otherwise everything looks the same and at least I never use that button, so I don't pay attention to it.
fourth. This place isn't like military camp, but sinse there is rules and if those are broken consequences depending how serious the case is. if someone will get warned 3 times it will automaticly lead on banning no matter who it is. Also in the worst cases the person might be banned right away. In example for serious spamming or repeative swearing. you have to remember that this board is still about family movie.
Fifth. The case so many people do use "no offence" or "I don't want anyone to get offended" is because people don't want offend people, but as you read text you easily get it that way sinse you can't add any sort of tune in your text. It's just there for people to know you don't want to anyone getting offended and that it is only your honest opinion and that you are respectiong others opinions, but want to let out your own opinion.
sixth. If you get reported and have done nothing wrong, no farther action will be taken and if that keep happening the person who is reporting stuff for no reason might get warned because every time someone report someone, every single moderator have to go and check if there is something wrong in that perosn actions, sinse we can never know if someone have done it already.
seventh. This IS NOT our job to take care of everything that is happening on this board, it's more like a hobby, we don't get paid from it and reasently we have just gotten compaining and **** on us no matter what we have done. It is every single person responability to make this forum pleasant place to post. So stop saying that it is our job to do something sinse there is no way that we can check everything. the reason why there is report button is that you can let us know if there is something wrong.
And the last, but not least. Everyone, I mean every single person who ever have had to join in this board have the same rules, have same rights and can see their honest opinion as long as that argument is made in polite way without useing any swearing or brakeing any of pride rules. If you feel need to start arguing with someone, take it to somewhere else. This board is not made for arguing or letting people down, it's made for people to meet people that share the same intreses and for makeing friends. So please quit this noncense already, we are not getting anywhere by memebers first saying what mods should or should not be done and then mods replying what memebers have done or should do.
[SIZE=huge]IF SOMETHING ON MY POST IS OFFENDING YOU ANY WAY. PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA MSN or PM.[/SIZE]
if something else need to be said, you can continue here.
*sigh* We have addressed a concern, we have given what we would like done about that concern, and we have been brushed aside and told to get over it. What do you people, lea, want from us? What else is there to say? We have been put in between a rock and a hard place, because we have an initial problem, but we also have the problem that the people who can fix the problem are not willing to address the problem. I mean, we're told by the staff that if we have a problem, say so and it will be dealt with, but when we talk about that problem, people are saying we're arguing, to quit being dramatic, and to give up.Quote:
Originally posted by SimbaTheMighty
And the last, but not least. Everyone, I mean every single person who ever have had to join in this board have the same rules, have same rights and can see their honest opinion as long as that argument is made in polite way without useing any swearing or brakeing any of pride rules. If you feel need to start arguing with someone, take it to somewhere else. This board is not made for arguing or letting people down, it's made for people to meet people that share the same intreses and for makeing friends. So please quit this noncense already, we are not getting anywhere by memebers first saying what mods should or should not be done and then mods replying what memebers have done or should do.
Look, you guys have made it clear that you're not willing to address our concerns. I am willing to help this forum improve, but I cannot help a forum that will not accept help. You've* disregarded legitimate concerns, tried to turn attention from the problem onto people or groups of people, and have told us to get over it. We have conceeded that we need improvemen as well and will be willing to improve, but you have not. What else do I have to offer to a forum that behaves this way? Very little, I'm afraid. There is just nothing left to be done if no one is willing to work on these issues, but would rather say "Stop this nonsense" or "Get over it". I'm sorry, I just don't know what to do with you guys, you're just not willing to work through this, and lea's gonna continue to be this cess pool of drama, arguments, and complete idiocy until you are. And I don't mean that to sound arrogant, I'm just as much at fault as everyone else, but I'm just getting fed up with all this "Get over it", "Quit arguing", and "Stop this nonsense".
*Not meaning you in particular, STM.
well I really wanted to see what you think about those 3 subjects and see what you would do. and the main reason was that I knew opinions gonna split.
especially on swearing it did. That swearing is not bothering most of people doesn't mean it need to be used and what Pnt said that there is places where you need swearing is not true at least that stuff doesn't belong on this board. I seriously can't think of any situation where you can't replace swearing with something else.
About arguings and threads where some people attack on each other, we have yet never just close the thread right away. but after it just keeps going on and on and on. the only way is to close it, sinse it doesn't seems those people want to take it to somewhere else sinse any of the subjects on Lea have purpouse to insult anyone or start flame wars.
Third question was made for an instance that some members, not telling the names have gotten annoied with. I personally don't really care as long as people don't make 5 threads like that per day and that way cause troubles for running the server. also this wanted to show that people can never agree about anything, there is always someone who thinks otherwise. So it seriously isn't a easy job to choose between right and wrong.
by saying quite the nonsense, I ment that blameing it on each other is not going to get us anywhere. We have to consentrate on the problem(s) whatever those are.
I don't think any of moderators have abuse their powers, yet in some cases I wish there would be more talking on moderator forum about the thing before takeing action.
I can't say anything about the way other moderators work, but I personaly do lisen what members have to say, but it is a lot easier to talk with you all about it and see what you have to say, if you contact me some other way then posting it on forum, just beacause it easily gets lost between lines/posts. So don't be afraid to contact us, I bet others then me want to hear about your ideas too. posting it on board isn't just the best option honestly.
Okay, so we've all said what we needed to say, by my knowledge at least, and this is getting rather repetitive. If you have something else to add, and it's constructive, then by all means add it.
So here's the next part of the issue:
Moderators -- Are you willing to:
1. Respect the concerns of the forum members and try to work with us to come to a solution. Likewise, don't argue with eachother forever and eventually not do anything.
2. Not use personal grudge or emotion in making a moderating decision. Use reason and a level-head when dealing with a possible rule infraction.
3. Allow the members a decent chance to solve their own issues and respect that everyone on this board is capable of coming to an agreement on his/her own ability. Realize that we are all human, and we are all capable as human beings of both making mistakes, and correcting them therein.
4. Not close a thread and then add a personal remark, reply to another board user, add your own opinion, or otherwise say something that would normally be replied to. Likewise, not post such things after a thread is closed.
5. Respect that you are not our mommies and daddies and it is not our obligation to obey the mods, only to obey the rules.
6. In no way otherwise abuse the power you have as a moderator or use it in a way that is sarcastic, personal, or out-of-proportion to the issue at hand.
7. Be forgiving in certain situations, even in rule infractions. The purpose of a "Warning" is not to bring a person closer to banning, but to help them avert such a action being taken.
8. Realize that you are able to have this forum continue like clockwork given less-than-perfect conditions, such as the absence of an administrator (or other moderator) or other situations. Finally, you do not need to run everything by Mufasa.
Members -- Are you willing to:
1. Realize that the mods as a whole mean well for the forum.
2. Realize that the mods are also human and just as capable of mistakes.
3. Be forgiving when a moderator does something wrong (but not outrageous), as the moderators will be equally forgiving when a member does something wrong (but not outrageous).
4. Realize that the moderators are trying very hard to provide a good posting environment for all the users of this board to post in. Likewise, if they are constantly told they're doing badly, that's going to hurt them like it would any other person.
5. Be willing to take care of your own posts, as the job of keeping order does not rest solely on the staff. This includes taking your personal issues to a private means should you feel the need to argue about something in a way that would be breaking a forum rule. Keep in mind that that harrassment through PM is just as bad, if not worse, as harrassment in a thread or post.
6. Be willing to bring up a concern in a mature and polite way, instead of throwing insults or otherwise acting inappropriately.
7. Be willing to not hold grudges either, as the moderators will be returning the favor.
8. Be willing to give the staff the same respect you yourself would expect to be given.
9. Be willing to use that decent chance to resolve your issues with someone before a thread is closed to actually resolve you issues with someone before a thread is closed.
Can everyone agree to:
Stop with this constant bickering that is present anywhere and everywhere on this forum.
I for one can say "Yes" on my part. I think if a person has a problem with any of those points above, and cannot give a legitimate reason, that person is a hindrance to the general order of the forum. If both members and moderators can agree to these points, and will follow through with it, I think the situation can be called resolved. And even if someone thinks they haven't violated even one of those things, then hey, I'm sure you won't have any problem agreeing to those.
Edit: Okay, edited it a few times for clarification and because someone brought up another point that needed added. It's done being edited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_moderator
By Wikipedia itself :oQuote:
Among a moderator's enforcement duties is often the duty to stop flaming and keep the board a friendly place, free of personal insults
I agree so much with Pnt its not even funny, You tell us to take some action by making judgements ourself on things, and to use this report button because its not you're job to look over everything? Pfft. Dude, As Moderators that is You're job, Hence "Moderator" "Moderate" ? See a connection? Mmkay good. Thats why every one here at Lea is not a Moderator, because its not there job, but a select fews to do the "Policing" and "counciling" of the boards.
What I see now is, That when the embers have a problem. The mods don't even want to help solve it, Even if it meant taking away just a little bit of their "Oh so mighty" power.
Would it REALLY Kill you to not post in a closed topic? I mean really. Are you* that immature as to not want to be able to be like the rest of us? Meh
I don't really get what is up with the moderators of Lea, but some I agree with, and am glad that are agreeing with us, and that there is a problem and are trying to set things straight. But then theirs some that tell us to "Get over it" or whatever, and some that tell us to "Back off", Let me tell the Mods something. Just because you say "Back off" Doesnt mean we have to. We have every right to post, and come back to a topic, at any time and place, just like you guys do. when you tell a member to "back off" thats just saying you are beating you're chests, showing off you're power to try and make yourself look big and fancy.
But one thing thats been addressed, and still no conclusion, the closed topic crap, and the snitcy picky going on with sarcasmic things that Mods post, and thier over abusing powers. Such as this here:
That my friends, is power abusing. Which is something No moderator or member should do, but mostly mods because members have NO powers what so ever. When a debate comes up, and a mod says "Shut up now" and you don't. Oh you get in trouble for not listening. But if a Mod posts after the "shut up" has been giving, its alright for them because they are Mods and can do what they want and when they want in a post.Quote:
Originally posted by nathalie
Why on earth do you need to write those words anyway?
And if we decide to put those words in the filter, then we will put those words in the filter.
More stuff I'd like to point out:
This is taken from "Thanks Neph" That post, was not even necessary. Nathalie no offense. But you saying exactly what I said doesnt even help the situation! You just bring it back up again and try to start the whole thing over. But whats this. It can't because its closed. What I'm trying to say is. When their is a closed topic, no matter who it is. A mod will always post in it and give their opinion, and sometimes state something that might not have been true, and the person who was said towards can't defend themselves.. like this:Quote:
Nathalie
Aargh, see, I don't come on for 1 evening and stuff happens.
1. Neph didn't do anything wrong. She closed it and said the right thing about going to that other thread.
2. This mod bashing that goes on ... don't worry, actions will be definatly taken, no one calls me or any other mod an asswhole anymore !
3. This Land: if you wanna quit school, talk to your parents about it
I agree that the thread should have been closed, just because of the attacks in that "bible verses" thread. But this partQuote:
Nephilim
Wow, I kind of get the feeling this thread was made to start problems.
Seriously, I've never seen anything quite as ridiculous as this on Lea. Guh! As anti-religious as I am, and as much as Bible passages make me roll my eyes sometimes, people have the right to put what they want! (So long as it's not adult material. )
I'm gonna go and close this thread, to stop a surge of wank.
Was not necessary. Was that not.. Harassment to the christian belief? Hmm reportable.. uh oh oO But yeah sorry if its not but I believe that it is.Quote:
and as much as Bible passages make me roll my eyes sometimes,
Another thing I'd like to point out about closing threads is this:
No offense or bad thoughts to you Sonique, but you told the guy to find another site possible for that advert (The banned x-box 360 commercial) But you closed the thread. From what I've seen at lea for multiple threads being created that have been made already. If he had made a new thread about it, I can see right about now him being flamed "This has already been made before.." or "Stop posting the same stuff over and over" or "theres a thread here already use it!" But the last one doesnt fit this one since its closed, but those can be used. Not only do the Mods do this, but the members are guilty also, for harassing and spamming about threads being bumped up, and multiple threads being created.Quote:
Sonique
That site has adult-oriented material on it, and can't be presented here. Now, if you can find another site that has the same advert with its decency intact, that's fine. Regardless, this thread is hereby closed...
I think I've said enough.. and will probably get a lot of abuse from this post. But it is my opinions, and I am entitled to them fully. And if you don't like it, do what the Moderators say "Get over it"
*You does not mean you STM, but of the Mods that are not agreeing with us right now.
~KTL
Thats another thing I wanted to bring up but couldnt think of it,Quote:
Originally posted by pntbll248
5. Respect that you are not our mommies and daddies and it is not our obligation to obey the mods, only to obey the rules.
Moderators you are here to enforce the rules of the Forums. Not tell us what we can and can not do (Unless the things you say is in the Rules themselves) Like I said in the other forums when you say "Back off" Or "Dont post here" We don't have to listen to a word you say on that. Its not in the rules that says "obey the mods, they are your gods and masters" So how about, Don't act like it and things would be a lot better.
And Kiva stated that only a select few have problems with the mods? Maybe thats because they have problems with us Perhaps you just havn't been caught at the wrong time at the right moment. Or whatever the saying is. You you'reself Kiva said that The mods weren't evil people trying to abuse their powers, then you turn around and contradict yourself saying they use their powers the wrong way? Dude oO I"m lost lol, I'm on both sides of this arguments, i'm with the Mods, and Members. All I'm trying to state is that well nevermind its been said here about a thousand times. so no point in saying it :p
I myself, agree with Pnt's demands (Not really but suggestions) But the thing I have in my head now, Is the moderators wont accept it because they dont want to look like normal people. They want to look higher and above the regular person in the forums. but hell for all I could know, they all could agree. But somewhere in my mind I just don't see it happening in this day and time, especially not at Lea.
but its just saddening to see such a nice forums like this having this happening, but I know other forusm that are spammed 24/7 and the members still agree and the modds still agree with each other. But here, asking a little thing of the mods they wont even DO it. There, they would because well. The fact is without members, there are no mods.
~KTL
And with that I'm out,
EDIT:
Also I've noticed a high number of mods, and even our own admin Nathalie, going invisible. Why that sudden change? In this thread here
To the Mods, who continue to say "Moderators are the same as members" So that means you are the same as us, Members.
Answer Nathalie's first post question. Are you afraid that we will see what you are looking at? Are you scared for you're name to show up on the online list? Just seems funny how you'd complain about it, then do it yourself. Heh
Quote:
Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
Moderators you are here to enforce the rules of the Forums. Not tell us what we can and can not do (Unless the things you say is in the Rules themselves) Like I said in the other forums when you say "Back off" Or "Dont post here" We don't have to listen to a word you say on that. Its not in the rules that says "obey the mods, they are your gods and masters" So how about, Don't act like it and things would be a lot better.
My personal view on it is that if a rule isn't broken, then a mod telling a member to do something is just like a member telling a member to do something, it isn't required in any way, but if it's not something you wanna get worked up over, then don't. Just thought I'd get it in the open that the moderators are here to enforce the rules, and have every right to do so, but we are supposed to follow the rules, not the mods. If you have broken a rule, however, and the moderator decides to deal with it (and it's all justified), then hey, that's a whole different ball game.
And don't worry, bud, I think the vast majority of forum users would be able to reach this agreement as long as the other side is willing to as well.
Edit: Just adressing your concern over some people going invisible; I personally like being invisible, that way no one knows when or where I'm gonna strike next :evilgrin:
I don't know about the other mods, but I have made it a point not to retort in a closed thread. If i am going to lock somthing, I will state the action taken and the reason, and nothing more. I do not believe in using powers meant to help the forum for my own personal use. But that's me.
As for Pnt's list, I think it is an extremely good start, and while I need to do some self work on some of them, namely the emotional issues, I intend to do my absoulte best to work with those ideals.
What exactly IS the problem on the board here? What exactly needs to change? People keep saying "Oh, the mods are being abusive, etc" okay...so what WOULD you like the board to work like? Maybe instead of pointing out every instance in which a mod did something you didn't like, give an idea on how to improve what you don't like.
KTL, on EVERY thread ALL you do is criticize mods, and pretty much every single one of them. The majority of your post is pointing out how the mods are failing, but you FAIL to help much at all. STM is right that it is the responsibility of ALL members to make judgments about their own behavior, etc. Apparently, A LOT of people are lacking that ability. Mods ARE supposed to moderate, but only in the situation where there is an argument, flame etc. It is IMPOSSIBLE and WRONG for the mods to have to watch over EVERY single topic and thread. Apparently, the people on Lea are NOT as mature as once thought if the mods DO have to do that. People should be able to solve some problems themselves, and the fact that that isnt the case leads me to believe this is one of the reasons mods close threads so quickly. No one here CAN solve problems themselves, and when they actually manage to, and the mods have closed the thread, it is unacceptable. I think that the members set the stage, and the mods act on it...it is a mistake to close the thread, but they used their judgement based off of what the members set up over the months and weeks before.
I REALLY fail to see the huge problem with mods here, and it seems to only be perpetuated by Pnt and KTL here. I don't see many other members that are outraged, or unsatisifed. Personally, I think you guys are doing more harm than good. You say that mods are allowed to make mistake, yet when they do, you connect each one together like it is a trend when it isn't. Nathalie makes some mistakes, Neph is a little harsh, Sonique closes a thread, etc. Then you just link all those together when they are completely seperate, and make it seem like it is a forum problem. You LOOK for something to point out that is wrong. I am not someone who agrees with the mods every time. Sonque has made me disagree with him, same with the posting in closed threads, but you guys are taking this way too far and making this a much less enjoyable place to be.
~Kiva
There is a difference between being "evil" and making mistakes with your powers SOMETIMES. I never said the mods always abuse their powers etc...maybe you need to read a bit more closelt next time.
I agree with Pnt's suggestions, and maybe you do have a legitimate concern..but KTL..it seems like you DO have a personal grudge against the mods. Pnt was trying to solve the situation, by listing those reasons, but in your post..you instantly bring up something that makes the mods look worse. You apparently think that they are out there just to control us, and that isnt the vibe I get from Pnt. You say you think that they are higher than us, and they won't agree...that just proves that you do have a personal vendetta against them. The reason I don't have a problem with the mods is because I don't break the rules, and if I do, I don't then spend every opportunity I have criticizing them.
Anyways, I think that those are very logical and normal suggestions. The only thing that I have a "problem" with is the fact that this all came up in the first place. I never saw a problem that was as bad as these threads made it out to be. If that will solve your problem, and make you feel better, etc..then that is fine. Anything to stop this drama that i personally never saw a need for is much appreciated. It almost reminds me of the Bill Of Rights. It was repetitive, and such..but it made he states happy, so they had to include it. Same there here, there is no major problem, but a few people think so (for whatever reasons) and thus have to have this "bill of rights" agreed to to make everything alright. If that works this out, then it is perfectly fine with me...even though I am not someone who saw a problem THIS large.
~Kiva
Oh hell no you didn't. I'm not getting to far in here, but all you can do is read this:Quote:
Originally posted by Only-now
What exactly IS the problem on the board here? What exactly needs to change? People keep saying "Oh, the mods are being abusive, etc" okay...so what WOULD you like the board to work like? Maybe instead of pointing out every instance in which a mod did something you didn't like, give an idea on how to improve what you don't like.
KTL, on EVERY thread ALL you do is criticize mods, and pretty much every single one of them. The majority of your post is pointing out how the mods are failing, but you FAIL to help much at all. STM is right that it is the responsibility of ALL members to make judgments about their own behavior, etc. Apparently, A LOT of people are lacking that ability. Mods ARE supposed to moderate, but only in the situation where there is an argument, flame etc. It is IMPOSSIBLE and WRONG for the mods to have to watch over EVERY single topic and thread. Apparently, the people on Lea are NOT as mature as once thought if the mods DO have to do that. People should be able to solve some problems themselves, and the fact that that isnt the case leads me to believe this is one of the reasons mods close threads so quickly. No one here CAN solve problems themselves, and when they actually manage to, and the mods have closed the thread, it is unacceptable. I think that the members set the stage, and the mods act on it...it is a mistake to close the thread, but they used their judgement based off of what the members set up over the months and weeks before.
I REALLY fail to see the huge problem with mods here, and it seems to only be perpetuated by Pnt and KTL here. I don't see many other members that are outraged, or unsatisifed. Personally, I think you guys are doing more harm than good. You say that mods are allowed to make mistake, yet when they do, you connect each one together like it is a trend when it isn't. Nathalie makes some mistakes, Neph is a little harsh, Sonique closes a thread, etc. Then you just link all those together when they are completely seperate, and make it seem like it is a forum problem. You LOOK for something to point out that is wrong. I am not someone who agrees with the mods every time. Sonque has made me disagree with him, same with the posting in closed threads, but you guys are taking this way too far and making this a much less enjoyable place to be.
~Kiva
and I've also stated PLENTY of times that I'm with the mods on many decisions, But some I just don't find constitutional, or right and what the hell and who the heck gave you the permission to call me out like that, with crap that wasn't even true? I'm not turning this into a flame war however. But if you want to know what we are fighting for. Read the thread Kiva.Quote:
Kovu The Lion
But the word Mod is probably used to describe more good than bad, thanks to the so called "Reputation' The moderators are putting upon themselves. And some are doing an EXCELLENT job, and its just a select few that are making mistakes, and making the members use once again "The Moderators" and the mods once again think. "I havn't done that" or "When did I do this.." when the member was actually trying to convey the point to someone directly, but can't because they can't say a members name or they'd get in trouble.
I wonder what you're last post just was..Quote:
Kiva
You LOOK for something to point out that is wrong.
If I were like you in certain situations, I would report you so badly for that post.
And as already said this is what we want done:
Quote:
Pntbll248
Moderators -- Are you willing to:
1. Respect the concerns of the forum members and try to work with us to come to a solution. Likewise, don't argue with eachother forever and eventually not do anything.
2. Not use personal grudge or emotion in making a moderating decision. Use reason and a level-head when dealing with a possible rule infraction.
3. Allow the members a decent chance to solve their own issues and respect that everyone on this board is capable of coming to an agreement on his/her own ability. Realize that we are all human, and we are all capable as human beings of both making mistakes, and correcting them therein.
4. Not close a thread and then add a personal remark, reply to another board user, add your own opinion, or otherwise say something that would normally be replied to. Likewise, not post such things after a thread is closed.
5. Respect that you are not our mommies and daddies and it is not our obligation to obey the mods, only to obey the rules.
6. In no way otherwise abuse the power you have as a moderator or use it in a way that is sarcastic, personal, or out-of-proportion to the issue at hand.
7. Be forgiving in certain situations, even in rule infractions. The purpose of a "Warning" is not to bring a person closer to banning, but to help them avert such a action being taken.
8. Realize that you are able to have this forum continue like clockwork given less-than-perfect conditions, such as the absence of an administrator (or other moderator) or other situations. Finally, you do not need to run everything by Mufasa.
Members -- Are you willing to:
1. Realize that the mods as a whole mean well for the forum.
2. Realize that the mods are also human and just as capable of mistakes.
3. Be forgiving when a moderator does something wrong (but not outrageous), as the moderators will be equally forgiving when a member does something wrong (but not outrageous).
4. Realize that the moderators are trying very hard to provide a good posting environment for all the users of this board to post in. Likewise, if they are constantly told they're doing badly, that's going to hurt them like it would any other person.
5. Be willing to take care of your own posts, as the job of keeping order does not rest solely on the staff. This includes taking your personal issues to a private means should you feel the need to argue about something in a way that would be breaking a forum rule. Keep in mind that that harrassment through PM is just as bad, if not worse, as harrassment in a thread or post.
6. Be willing to bring up a concern in a mature and polite way, instead of throwing insults or otherwise acting inappropriately.
7. Be willing to not hold grudges either, as the moderators will be returning the favor.
8. Be willing to give the staff the same respect you yourself would expect to be given.
9. Be willing to use that decent chance to resolve your issues with someone before a thread is closed to actually resolve you issues with someone before a thread is closed.
I beg to differ, I read every post thats made in lea because its a slow forums and theres nothing else to do. Try doing stuff before you talk bud.Quote:
Only-now
It is IMPOSSIBLE and WRONG for the mods to have to watch over EVERY single topic and thread.
Which is why we have asked the mods to try and change themselves, also stating that we the members would change. I don't know where you have been bud. But a LOT of members harass the Mods, either it be on the forums, or in a PM, It HAPPENS. And I'm sorry that you don't want to agree with us and our problems here, that you are just so fucking perfect and you don't see the real atmosphere of these situations. If you read I swear you would find other members who would agree, like W-eyed-wanderer. But nah, you'd rather post you're own opinions and attack others with stuff that aint true Right?Quote:
No one here CAN solve problems themselves,
The reason I do, Because if I can give examples, maybe people unlike you will start to see that there is a problem here, and that it does need to be solved and that it is affecting people. If not the whole forums, but a few select people that careQuote:
You say that mods are allowed to make mistake, yet when they do, you connect each one together like it is a trend when it isn't. Nathalie makes some mistakes, Neph is a little harsh, Sonique closes a thread, etc. Then you just link all those together when they are completely seperate, and make it seem like it is a forum problem
~KTL
To be perfectly honest, this place is starting to scare me. And I mean, SCARE ME. I've seen some pretty harsh things said about the mods, some even blown out of proportions to the point where they become all-out lies just to chip at their emotional state, and I've seen mods turn member concerns down and use the "thread lock" option to post their opinion without getting flamed. I came here to make friends and this is what I see.
Needless to say, I haven't made any GOOD good friends, and possibly only two. People are too busy BICKERING and disrespecting each other that they have lost sight of why Lea is even existing: to be a FRIENDLY, LION KING-related forum.
I'm not taking sides on this matter simply because I feel pretty much outcast by most of the people here, but this is just ridiculous. Members should NOT be hating the mods as much as they do and insulting them at every little bad thing that happens! Mods should not be ignoring member concerns and only inciting more hatred by using their powers of the almighty as a sword and shield! The problem is not the mods. The problem is not the members. It's BOTH the mods AND the members. Most people here are picking sides and just blatantly attacking the opposition, without seeing the GOOD they bring with them. Members make this site what it is and provide some interesting topics. Mods keep the flame wars down to a minimum and protect those that feel threatened.
But quite honestly, I expected better out of this place... It's very beautifully put together, it has links to all around the world, and the majority of people here are nice, different opinions or not. I may not be as attached to Lea as most people are, but it hurts to even open the website for it...
I dunno, it may have been a huge mistake even signing up here. And if this keeps rolling on and on with all the hatred and troubles and crap, I'm gonna leave before my sanity dries up.
Otherwise, good luck. There ain't squat this little newbie can do to change anything with this war going on.
Kiva, If the mods dont want to look bad, they shouldn't do bad things, no? Now please stop calling me out, and making me look like a complete *** hole. I have no problems with the Moderators, I have problems with the way they run things, but not the people and that is a BIG difference, Thats where you do not SEE WHAT I AM DOING.Quote:
Originally posted by Only-now
There is a difference between being "evil" and making mistakes with your powers SOMETIMES. I never said the mods always abuse their powers etc...maybe you need to read a bit more closelt next time.
I agree with Pnt's suggestions, and maybe you do have a legitimate concern..but KTL..it seems like you DO have a personal grudge against the mods. Pnt was trying to solve the situation, by listing those reasons, but in your post..you instantly bring up something that makes the mods look worse. You apparently think that they are out there just to control us, and that isnt the vibe I get from Pnt. You say you think that they are higher than us, and they won't agree...that just proves that you do have a personal vendetta against them. The reason I don't have a problem with the mods is because I don't break the rules, and if I do, I don't then spend every opportunity I have criticizing them.
Anyways, I think that those are very logical and normal suggestions. The only thing that I have a "problem" with is the fact that this all came up in the first place. I never saw a problem that was as bad as these threads made it out to be. If that will solve your problem, and make you feel better, etc..then that is fine. Anything to stop this drama that i personally never saw a need for is much appreciated. It almost reminds me of the Bill Of Rights. It was repetitive, and such..but it made he states happy, so they had to include it. Same there here, there is no major problem, but a few people think so (for whatever reasons) and thus have to have this "bill of rights" agreed to to make everything alright. If that works this out, then it is perfectly fine with me...even though I am not someone who saw a problem THIS large.
~Kiva
Nope, Sonique did that himself by saying he wouldn't agree with the posting in closed topics stuff :D You probably don't see this as a big problem, because you hav'nt been affected yet, and nothing has happened to you. so you have nothing to relate to. and have no reason to do anything at all. With that said, I'm taking a nap. I don't need this.Quote:
You say you think that they are higher than us, and they won't agree...
~KTL
Quote:
Originally posted by Only-now
..but KTL..it seems like you DO have a personal grudge against the mods. Pnt was trying to solve the situation, by listing those reasons, but in your post..you instantly bring up something that makes the mods look worse. You apparently think that they are out there just to control us, and that isnt the vibe I get from Pnt. You say you think that they are higher than us, and they won't agree...that just proves that you do have a personal vendetta against them. The reason I don't have a problem with the mods is because I don't break the rules, and if I do, I don't then spend every opportunity I have criticizing them.
~Kiva
Quote:
You apparently think that they are out there just to control us -
Kivitts is right, I sense that you feel the Moderators are just there controlling us - which doesn't mean you now need to get angry and flame me or any person which you haven't yet but I'm stating for posts after this. Kiva is trying to show you another aspect. If you think he's making you an *** by doing so, then I find it impossible for us to ever settle this.Quote:
Moderators you are here to enforce the rules of the Forums. Not tell us what we can and can not do (Unless the things you say is in the Rules themselves) Like I said in the other forums when you say "Back off" Or "Dont post here" We don't have to listen to a word you say on that. Its not in the rules that says "obey the mods, they are your gods and masters" So how about, Don't act like it and things would be a lot better.
He's not - he's replying to your posts with the same approach as you.Quote:
Kiva, If the mods dont want to look bad, they shouldn't do bad things, no? Now please stop calling me out, and making me look like a complete *** hole.
KTL, Kiva, time to seperate a bit. Going at eachother throats won't do a thing.
Kiva, I'm glad all looks well to you. That means YOU are doing somthing right. However, while the forum isn't dieing as KTL is saying, there is definatly some room for major improovement. As Pnt stated, I don't think the board needs to change, just the members within(meaning mods too). Not change who we are, but how we react to situations. Meanwhile, I am going to see if I can work out a few things that might at least reasure everybody.
im with you.Quote:
Originally posted by Nicoga
To be perfectly honest, this place is starting to scare me. And I mean, SCARE ME.
Didnt this forum start with certain rules, and arent moderators like the second bosses next to *in this case Mufasa* the owner of the forum?
My statement ?nd opinion: If you don't like any of the rules, ?re the moderators, then please leave.
If im not mistaken, Mufasa is the one who gives certain people the moderating honor, and if he believes that th?y are the ones who should have it, then th?y are right. So is Mufasa.
Anyways, this is just my opinion, i didn't mean this post as in a mean way ore anything. I actually agree with every single one of you, that's why this is hard for me to give any opinion. I will say one thing though: this forum has changed completely then when i just joined, and i think that's a pity.. Because i miss the old lea, the lea where i'd admire moderators and where i wanted to be one. Where i could be proud at decent people. But its all gone now, not forgotten though. I really wish i could turn back time..
"Also I've noticed a high number of mods, and even our own admin Nathalie, going invisible. Why that sudden change? In this thread here
To the Mods, who continue to say "Moderators are the same as members" So that means you are the same as us, Members."~KTL
I do think Nathalie have been invisible for as long as I remember :confused:
not more to add here yet. I will take more careful look when I have time. which is not now sinse I gotta work in 15 mins.
With all due respect to Nuka and KTL, I took it upon myself to merge the "Moderator approval' thread and the "Repoting?" thread, as they had become to of the same conversation.
If either of the above mentioned people have a problem with this, drop me a PM, and I will un-merge them(Difficult and time consuming, but possible).
I think the merging was wise. I almost became confused and felt I as posting the same discussion in both topics. Danke Roquits.
It's the way things are, but it's not the way they should be. I, too, think it's unfair that mods continue to post in closed threads--as they are, infact, closed.Quote:
Originally posted by Sonkakee
... And my common sense tells me that you'll have to get over it, because that's the way it is....
Perhaps, but certainly not reportable, as Neph wasn't insulting anyone on the forum.Quote:
Was that not.. Harassment to the christian belief?
Just like it is IMPOSSIBLE and WRONG for every city to have police. Uh, no. That's their job, their duty as mods.Quote:
It is IMPOSSIBLE and WRONG for the mods to have to watch over EVERY single topic and thread.
Members can go invisible, too.Quote:
Also I've noticed a high number of mods, and even our own admin Nathalie, going invisible. Why that sudden change? In this thread here
To the Mods, who continue to say "Moderators are the same as members" So that means you are the same as us, Members
Just to let you guys know I have been following this thread. Hard to respond to each individual point, as there's been so much back and forth.
I'll reiterate some things I posted just now in the moderator forum:
1) We have a good deal of very intelligent members who are opinionated and strong-willed. The type of people who would make good CEO's of companies, or future politicians, or leaders of non-profit organizations. The type of people who have good ideas and will work hard to set them in motion. A greater percentage, I believe, than any other forum I go to regularly.
There's a bit of inevitability, given this, that there will be a butting of heads over certain issues, but I'd hope that we (that includes the moderators) can use our collective energies to keep things in balance, recognize differeing opinions are a condition of our strength and diversity and not an attempt to disturb the peace of the forum.
As moderators, we'll give it our all to recognize this strength and diversity and not sweep it under the rug.
2) I've always been of the opinion that a certain amount of interpersonal conflict cannot be avoided but that people can and will resolve the situation amongst themselves if they have the capacity at the time to be reasonable. Of course, I will step in if something has gone too far and it seems that those involved in an argument are letting their emotions get the best of them.
I see a moderator as a third party giving someone, or more than one person, a "reality check," that is, letting them know if something is getting out of hand, just in case they've been blinded a bit by the emotions and energy of a conversation, or perhaps started to take something personally without realizing it, which happens. This allows the member(s) to take a step back and look at how they're conducting themselves on the forum, thereby empowering them to use their own good judgement to take a more reasonable approach to a situation.
When you think about it, there are very few members here who may have been out of favor with the members of the forum (again, moderators included) who haven't recognized, sometimes by themselves, and sometimes with a little moderator support, that they were taking things too far.
In other words, members who go too far are usually not themselves at that time and just need all of our support to return to a sense of normalcy. It's because we care about people that we (moderators and members) will let someone know if they've crossed the line.
Those who have been banned in the past have been, for the most part, people who either never gained our trust and respect from the beginning or, for some reason, made some sort of conscious decision to cause grief to other members without regard to the consequences.
What I'm trying to get at here is that, as much as occassionally we may fight amongst ourselves, we still care about each other, and it's important to remember that. Also,
a) If a moderator may occassionally seem overbearing, then it's because they are concerned. If they start going on a power trip, then that's a behavior that needs to change, and I think we rarely succumb to that. The ideal is, of course, for it never to happen.
b) If a member seems to suddenly change their behavior and start lashing out at other members, there's probably a reason, and it might not necessarily have to do with you. Take a step back before you lash out at them, lest a flame war start.
If the behavior continues, expect the moderators to step in. Let us know, of course, but expect that if the member in question admits they were not themselves or expresses regret for their recent behavior, that we will show forgiveness, and you should consider doing the same.
There may be situations in which a member has wronged you to the point where you can't forgive them, but for the sake of all of us, keep grudges off the forum, and avoid talking to them if you know it would cause a disruption to the forum.
That's really the heart of the matter. It's the power trips and flames that have caused so much turmoil in the past week. Since we're all members, it's something we need to be aware of and work on.