Vitani's Relationship with Kovu

[Katari]

I was watching Simba's Pride the other day, and started thinking about the nuances of Vitani and her feelings about Kovu -- what did she really think of him, anyway? So I thought I'd come over to Lea and post up my thoughts, in hopes of getting some of your thoughts as well...

OK, then, let's examine the evidence on a scene-by-scene basis:

SCENE 1
In his interaction with Kiara, Kovu shows little interest in "friendly" conversation; good grief, he doesn't even know how to play. This tells me that he (and, by extrapolation, his sister) don't really mesh well enough to play. Of course, this is mostly due to their mother's influence, hardening them beyond their months in preperation for the coming war with the Pridelands.

Any interaction Kovu would have with his sister would be in the form of training (more on that later) or the hostile sarcasm/tough talk he used on Kiara at first. He only began to soften when Kiara tried to be amiable, which I can't imagine Vitani doing.

SCENE 2
In Vitani's conversation with Nuka, she brings up Kovu and his abscence right from the get-go. Some of you may say, "See there, she really cares about him," but to me it doesn't suggest concern so much as anger at Nuka for disregarding his mother's instruction. The fact that she says "again" in reference to Kovu being lost suggests to me that she took no serious steps to prevent it. If her talk with Nuka is any guide, she's not the most pleasant little lioness to speak with.

SCENE 3
Zira arrives carrying Kovu. Vitani immediatly challenges him to a fight, and I can't help but think it was (at least partially) to get some attention from Zira. They don't appear particularly friendly as they crouch and snarl, but then the only other examples we have of such behaviour in the films are the amiable Simba, Nala, and Kiara. (Oh yeah, even Kovu looked fairly nice when he was getting ready to pounce Kiara.) They seem to take their "play" fights seriously.

SCENE 4
In "My Lullaby", Vitani sings along with her mother in praising Kovu as saviour, but does she really feel that in her hear or is it just another "attention ruse". I tend to lean towards the former; that is, Vitani may not care all that much for Kovu now, but in the future she believes he will make a great King. And she does clobbers Nuka for talking bad about him.

SCENE 5
Vitani and Nuka in the Elephant Graveyard. Here, Nuka is questioning Kovu's status as "Chosen One" again, but instead of responding directly, Vitani merely tells him to follow orders. Still, her actions are all for the purpose of aiding Kovu's rise to power.

SCENE 6
Vitani expectantly waits for Kovu to ambush Simba, to no avail. Her faith in him is eroding quickly, and she races back to tell Zira -- subject of her foremost loyalty -- the bad news. She has embraced Zira's military doctrine whole-heartedly ("Affirmitive!") and is willing to see even Kovu put out of the way for the end goal.

SCENE 7
Zira's ambush. Vitani attacks Simba with the rest of the Outsiders ("as a unit"), and knocks Kovu out of the fight to boot. By her expression, she clearly disdains him as weak and indecisive in his attempt to help. She is the first to follow Simba down the hill as well.

SCENE 8
Nuka's death. Vitani seems a bit stunned by the death of her older brother, but when her mother turns on Kovu, she does the same from the background. When Kovu runs off to Pride Rock, Zira must restrain her daughter from pursuing him. She then gives the propaganda speech, which Vitani accepts fully -- Kovu is now one of the enemy.

SCENE 9
Vitani follows right behind her mother as they enter the Pridelands. I'm reading into this a lot, understand -- but it could be that she hopes to find Kovu still there -- they don't know about the exile -- perhaps she hopes to avenge Nuka personally?

SCENE 10
The final conflict between the two prides. As Vitani runs up to face Nala, her expression looks slightly confused or distracted, almost cub-like -- maybe she is turned off by the carnage of a real battle? When she finds Nala, she changes to an evil smile and attacks her after a brief interchange, which indirectly mocks Kovu for taking up with the "pretty" princess. All her life she's been taught to hate Simba, and I suppose that Nala is the next best thing, which is why it always looked to me like she was seeking Nala personally.

SCENE 11
Kovu's "betrayal" plays itself out fully, as he and Kiara break up the struggle. Vitani's face again conveys distate and even hate for Kovu, the Pridelanders and everything they represent, but she suddenly seems to understand as Kiara speaks. It is then that she turns her back on her mother's philosophy of bitterness -- perhaps Kovu is the saviour after all? Kovu for his part seems pleasantly surprised at his sister's turn to the light...not what he was expecting from her?


This lengthy ramble has led me to no final conclusions as of yet, and maybe it never will, but I hope it will at least stir up some discussion on the boards.

Katari out...:ayecapn:

[Nephilim]

Or we could just 'ship them together.

[Katari]

What? :thinks: :hmm:

[Dyani]

:lol: well... we only have Zira's word on it that they are twins.. It could be like a Nala/Simba cubbie relationship? O_o this is actually a really sweet ship, two cutest lions in the second film!!

[Simba Marasa]

there would ba a lot of sniping and zingers. cute idea. wonder what the cubs would look like...

[Katari]

LOL, no, no, for crying out loud, that's not what I was getting at. The question I wanted answered was whether or not she cared about Kovu as a brother...not a lover.

Still, that is intruiging, especially as I hold that they are not real siblings, just raised that way.

[TX-101]

I..I ,..I dont know what to think... I like the way it is.

[Kapasa]

i thought Vitani wanted Kovo to kill Simba and take his place so that she could then kill Kovo and be queen, just a theory...

[Katari]

Interesting, and it may be so...I'll have to think on it some more. The real reason I'm wondering is because one of my fan-fics has significant time with Kovu and Vitani present, so I need to figure out how they would interact with each other.

[Shatara]

Alright, I suck at conveying ideas, hopefully too much isnt lost in the translation...



Originally posted by Katari
SCENE 2
In Vitani's conversation with Nuka, she brings up Kovu and his abscence right from the get-go. Some of you may say, "See there, she really cares about him," but to me it doesn't suggest concern so much as anger at Nuka for disregarding his mother's instruction. The fact that she says "again" in reference to Kovu being lost suggests to me that she took no serious steps to prevent it. If her talk with Nuka is any guide, she's not the most pleasant little lioness to speak with. The reason her 'concern' is more of 'mother said so' than 'wheres kovu', is she doesnt see a need for him to have a 'babysitter'. I mean, she's about the same age, and nobody watches her...so theres no harm in Kovu being on his own in her mind, except going against Mother's instructions.
Also, Outsiders generally dont 'do' pleasantries. The cubs would be an extreme case, as it's all they've ever known; the older lionesses theoretically have seen better times.


SCENE 3
Zira arrives carrying Kovu. Vitani immediatly challenges him to a fight, and I can't help but think it was (at least partially) to get some attention from Zira. They don't appear particularly friendly as they crouch and snarl, but then the only other examples we have of such behaviour in the films are the amiable Simba, Nala, and Kiara. (Oh yeah, even Kovu looked fairly nice when he was getting ready to pounce Kiara.) They seem to take their "play" fights seriously. I'd have to disagree. 'Tani seems quite eager to tangle with Kovu, and not maliciously. Kovu seems eager to get it on as well, untill concern for his big brother took over (on a side note, it's unlikely he's Zira's, you cant get that kind of thing with both nature and nurture working against). It's interesting to note that 'Tani disappears about here; this can be atributed to 'when Mother gets mad, be somewhere else', however.


SCENE 5
Vitani and Nuka in the Elephant Graveyard. Here, Nuka is questioning Kovu's status as "Chosen One" again, but instead of responding directly, Vitani merely tells him to follow orders. Still, her actions are all for the purpose of aiding Kovu's rise to power.Another possibility, is clearly its not a point worth arguing, and has likely been done many times before (hence the rolly-eye). In some ways it seems like she's 'babysitting' her big brother, keeping him on track (a bit begrudgedly, I might add).


SCENE 6
Vitani expectantly waits for Kovu to ambush Simba, to no avail. Her faith in him is eroding quickly, and she races back to tell Zira -- subject of her foremost loyalty -- the bad news. She has embraced Zira's military doctrine whole-heartedly ("Affirmitive!") and is willing to see even Kovu put out of the way for the end goal.I'm sure she felt a bit betrayed herself, as she truly believed Simba to be the enemy.


SCENE 8
Nuka's death. Vitani seems a bit stunned by the death of her older brother, but when her mother turns on Kovu, she does the same from the background. When Kovu runs off to Pride Rock, Zira must restrain her daughter from pursuing him. She then gives the propaganda speech, which Vitani accepts fully -- Kovu is now one of the enemy.Likely, Zira directed her emotions, channeling her loss and shock into anger, and directing it towards Kovu. See below.


SCENE 9
Vitani follows right behind her mother as they enter the Pridelands. I'm reading into this a lot, understand -- but it could be that she hopes to find Kovu still there -- they don't know about the exile -- perhaps she hopes to avenge Nuka personally?Likely, she was looking for a good fight to push away her own confusion. My opinion, anyway.


SCENE 10
The final conflict between the two prides. As Vitani runs up to face Nala, her expression looks slightly confused or distracted, almost cub-like -- maybe she is turned off by the carnage of a real battle? When she finds Nala, she changes to an evil smile and attacks her after a brief interchange, which indirectly mocks Kovu for taking up with the "pretty" princess. All her life she's been taught to hate Simba, and I suppose that Nala is the next best thing, which is why it always looked to me like she was seeking Nala personally.The confusion/distraction is likely a result of thinking too much. She likely realized that pinning everything on Kovu didnt make much sense, but internal conflict with her own loyaltys were likely a problem, and possibly resulting in her rash assault.


SCENE 11
Kovu's "betrayal" plays itself out fully, as he and Kiara break up the struggle. Vitani's face again conveys distate and even hate for Kovu, the Pridelanders and everything they represent, but she suddenly seems to understand as Kiara speaks. It is then that she turns her back on her mother's philosophy of bitterness -- perhaps Kovu is the saviour after all? Kovu for his part seems pleasantly surprised at his sister's turn to the light...not what he was expecting from her? It's unlikely she turned around so completely so quickly. More likely was a combination of her own doubts, something Nala said (the only concevable way that fight could end without one or both combatants missing body parts), seeing Kovu's reslove, and hearing Kiara's words. Also, I believe she hoped Zira would follow...


Some further notes on Vitani:

Relations w/Kovu:
It's unlikely the two were very close, between long hours of training, Kovu's tendancy to run off on his own, and something else I was going to mention but have forgotten (>.<). Tani likely held him to similar expectations as her mother as well.

Relations w/Zira:
I believe the two were relatively close, as tani was not held in distain as Nuka, nor in high expectations as Kovu. There may have even been some kind of 'love' here, as I cant see how else such loyalty to Zira's sociopathy could come about.

Calculating vs Rash
Even with her relatively breif screentime, we see both ends of the spectrum. In 'scene 2' she plays all kinds of mindgames with poor Nuka, setting him up for a health self-pwnage; in 'Scene 7' she put Kovu out of action with a single presice blow, despite the chaos around her. Conversely, she responds rashly and/or agressively in 'scenes' 6, 8, and 10. It's worth noting that these examples are under emotional stress and/or internal conflict, showing a tendancy to attack when confused.

[Katari]

All right, this is the kind of discussion I was looking for. Thanks for a good, detailed reply. As I said, most of my ideas were pure conjecture, with (admittedly) a minimum of real "sit down and think about it" involved.


The reason her 'concern' is more of 'mother said so' than 'wheres kovu', is she doesnt see a need for him to have a 'babysitter'. I mean, she's about the same age, and nobody watches her...so theres no harm in Kovu being on his own in her mind, except going against Mother's instructions. Also, Outsiders generally dont 'do' pleasantries. The cubs would be an extreme case, as it's all they've ever known; the older lionesses theoretically have seen better times.
I would have to agree with you there. While Zira may see the need for Kovu to be babysat, Vitani seems not to think so. Of course Outsiders don't do pleasantries, it's part of what makes them so appealing :vitsm:



I'd have to disagree. 'Tani seems quite eager to tangle with Kovu, and not maliciously. Kovu seems eager to get it on as well, untill concern for his big brother took over (on a side note, it's unlikely he's Zira's, you cant get that kind of thing with both nature and nurture working against). It's interesting to note that 'Tani disappears about here; this can be atributed to 'when Mother gets mad, be somewhere else', however.
I didn't mean to imply malice in their fighting, not by a long shot -- indeed, real malice would be rare in cubs of that age, if not impossible. I noticed that she took off, too, but neglected to mention it in my original post.



Another possibility, is clearly its not a point worth arguing, and has likely been done many times before (hence the rolly-eye). In some ways it seems like she's 'babysitting' her big brother, keeping him on track (a bit begrudgedly, I might add).
Yes, that seems the most likely possibility. I can't imagine Nuka being allowed to go off on his own:evilgrin:



I'm sure she felt a bit betrayed herself, as she truly believed Simba to be the enemy.
I'm sure she did feel betrayed, but was it more for herself or was she just spouting the doctrine she'd heard over and over to herself?



Likely, Zira directed her emotions, channeling her loss and shock into anger, and directing it towards Kovu. See below.
True, Zira is clearly a master of twisting the mind to work the way she wants it to.



Likely, she was looking for a good fight to push away her own confusion. My opinion, anyway.
Agreed, she was looking for a fight, but I can't help but feel she may have wanted to take it out on Kovu. As I said before, just my personal reading into it.



The confusion/distraction is likely a result of thinking too much. She likely realized that pinning everything on Kovu didnt make much sense, but internal conflict with her own loyaltys were likely a problem, and possibly resulting in her rash assault.
Right, unless you're one of those wackos who claim that Nala/Scar=Vitani, and that she was gunning for her momma. I'm not one of those people, thankfully:Ooo:



It's unlikely she turned around so completely so quickly. More likely was a combination of her own doubts, something Nala said (the only concevable way that fight could end without one or both combatants missing body parts), seeing Kovu's reslove, and hearing Kiara's words. Also, I believe she hoped Zira would follow...
Yes, I'm sure she wanted Zira to follow. Whether or not Nala had anything to do with it is unknown, but I would guess that they both just turned to watch the Simba/Zira showdown -- one in concern for her mate, the other in concern for her mother/general. All the other lionesses seem to be watching, at least.



Relations w/Kovu:
It's unlikely the two were very close, between long hours of training, Kovu's tendancy to run off on his own, and something else I was going to mention but have forgotten (>.< ). Tani likely held him to similar expectations as her mother as well.
That would be my guess, she seems to do so in "My Lullaby", at least.



Relations w/Zira:
I believe the two were relatively close, as tani was not held in distain as Nuka, nor in high expectations as Kovu. There may have even been some kind of 'love' here, as I cant see how else such loyalty to Zira's sociopathy could come about.
Possible, but I always viewed Zira's "love" for her children as more of a "means to an end" attitude -- hence the "Vitani -- now!" line near the end -- using her as a capable backup plan.


Calculating vs Rash
Even with her relatively breif screentime, we see both ends of the spectrum. In 'scene 2' she plays all kinds of mindgames with poor Nuka, setting him up for a health self-pwnage; in 'Scene 7' she put Kovu out of action with a single presice blow, despite the chaos around her. Conversely, she responds rashly and/or agressively in 'scenes' 6, 8, and 10. It's worth noting that these examples are under emotional stress and/or internal conflict, showing a tendancy to attack when confused.
Well said, and I agree completely. It's good to have these kind of discussions for a change.

And there are plenty of other nuances to take into consideration, such as:

1. Where there any other meetings between Kovu and Kiara (or even Vitani) in the years between "My Lullaby" and Kiara's first hunt?

2. Where does Kopa (if there was a Kopa) fit into the Vitani picture -- they would be about the same age? Now is as good a time as any to go into my Kopa theory:

I believe that both Kopa and Kiara were concieved during the "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" sequence, which means that they would be littermates. Kopa was presented at the end of TLK, and was trained to be the next King, but he met with some sort of demise (likely by Zira's paw) at a young age, which then force a second presentation for Kiara at the start of SP. That would place Vitani and Kopa at fairly the same age, so there may have been some interaction between the two before his death.

3. Just who were Vitani's parents anyway? I've got my theories on that, too, but I'm too heavy in writer's block to share them. Suffice to say it's Zira and Scar, but Kovu is not her biological brother.

Thanks for engaging my brain:cheese:

[Shatara]

I'm sure she did feel betrayed, but was it more for herself or was she just spouting the doctrine she'd heard over and over to herself?Likely a bit of both, she wanted Simba dead at that point herself, though her loyalty and indocrtrination played a large part. Pulling away from that would have to have been a difficult process indeed.


Agreed, she was looking for a fight, but I can't help but feel she may have wanted to take it out on Kovu. As I said before, just my personal reading into it.Possible, though I imagine there was quite an internal conflict there, between her loyalty to her mother and the gradual realization that her mother was just going to get everyone killed, and Kovu could likely have served as a scapegoat to direct that against as I mentioned.


Possible, but I always viewed Zira's "love" for her children as more of a "means to an end" attitude -- hence the "Vitani -- now!" line near the end -- using her as a capable backup plan.True, but that kind of 'love' seems more like what she'd give Kovu...but then, the expectation of total obedience fits well.


Right, unless you're one of those wackos who claim that Nala/Scar=Vitani, and that she was gunning for her momma. I'm not one of those people, thankfullyThat theory makes sense, in some ways, though I dont subscribe to it myself. Now that I think of it, the only link we have between the three of them is they all call Zira 'Mother'...how many of them she actually bore is debatable ;)


3. Just who were Vitani's parents anyway? I've got my theories on that, too, but I'm too heavy in writer's block to share them. Suffice to say it's Zira and Scar, but Kovu is not her biological brother. I'd go with that myself. She does have a good bit of Scar in her, thats for sure :vitsm:


blah blah blah Kopa blah blah......there is no kopa http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Shatara/bumms/vitgrr.gif

[Simba Marasa]

I am pretty sure that Zira and Scar were the biological parents of all three cubs. I doubt that Scar would have allowed any males, rogue or pride, to remain alive during his reign. If he thought cubby Simba was a threat, a full-grown lion certainly would be. A couple of hundred hyenas would be enough to drive away or kill most lions. Under these circumstances, Zira's (who is unbalanced) contention that "he's not your dad, but you're going to be king anyway" stuff may have been an attempt on her part to protect her male cub from Simba. If he was not Scar's then he might be perceived as being less of a threat. I know that's stretching it a bit.

On to Vitani. She and Kovu are likely littermates. And she really loves her big brothers, even though she shows typical sisterly contempt for them at times. Anyone with brothers knows this. You stick up for them and no one is allowed to pound them -- except for you. The cradle scene in "my lullaby" really shows that Vitani is extremely protective of Kovu, but also perhaps at odds with him. He is their mom's favorite and she spends a great deal of time with him -- at the expense of Vitani and Nuka. Nuka obviously has something wrong with him (either physically or mentally) that eliminated him from the line of succession in Kovu's favor.

Vitani's eagerness to follow her mother's orders to the letter may be an attempt to get close to an aloof parent. This is a known tactic of children living in abusive situations, to try to pander to the abusing parent. It is also a mechanism of control by an abusing parent, to offer attention as a reward to reinforce "proper" behavior. This is also known as operant conditioning. So Zira and Vitani have a relationship, and she obviously loves her mother, but it is a one-way conversation, with Vitani desperately trying to attract Zira?s attention, while Zira focused on her own obsessive behavior.

I agree that she turns against Zira in the end because Zira was going to get everyone killed, and Vitani had lionesses that probably really did love her -- the other outsiders. Consider this: Zira is obsessed, but also pride leader. Her main function should be to get the hunts going. But I doubt she does this -- not preoccupied with her plans. So who does? The likely answer is one or more of the outsiders, and Vitani. It is my contention that she functions as the pro-tem leader of the outsiders. They were already confused enough when Kovu jumped ship, but when Vitani also went over to the enemy and then Zira ordered her death, then that was the last straw for them.

The idea that Zira, as such an uncaring and calculating parent could not possible be the cubs? mother is, unfortunately not a valid argument. Zira is unbalanced to begin with, and in real life, shelters are full of kids who have been abused by biological parents.

Ok, next point: Kopa and Kiara. I kind of like the idea of Kopa being Kiara?s twin, except for three things:
1. Vitani and Nuka return to the outlands (in the cut version) telling Zira that they had just seen Simba?s new cub, and it was a girl.
2. Simba looks much older in SP than he does at the end of TLK, implying that some time has passed.
3. And those darned ?Six New Tales? throw a monkey wrench into the works by making Kopa at least semi-canon, if not fully cannon. Meaning that he is a cub about Simba?s age when Mufasa died. What happened to him is fodder for the fanfic writers. Personally, I think Zira killed him, thus getting her and her supporters (which probably included any and all of Scar?s cubs) exiled (perhaps for lack of evidence or the problem that she had young cubs ? Simba is such a softie?).

I guess that?s it for now. Interesting topic.

[trexmaster]

I thought Vitani was like a sister to Kovu.

[Simba Marasa]

O__o

[Shatara]

Originally posted by Simba Marasa
stoof Some interesting points on Zira and 'Tani's relation ship, I hadnt thought of it like that.

That Vitani was the 'real' leader by the time of the final battle is a sentement I've expressed before, here and on TLKFAA I think. You've prolly said it better tho. I always found it important that all hesitation on part of the outsiders disappeared the very moment Zira condemned her daughter, showing they both looked up to Vitani more, and they understood if Zira was so quick to toss aside her own daughter, then any one of them was than pawns to be sacrificed for her fanatical ideal. I also see Vitani holding her role as de-facto 'queen of the outlands' even after the reunifacation.


My opinions on Kopa mostly revolve around my quite low opinion on 6NA, (explained in part here (http://forum.majilisi.com/index.php?showtopic=251&view=findpost&p=5809)), and generally his being mentioned in the same sentance as 'Tani can make me twitchy, due to the frequency of his involvement in one-dimentional pairings with her x3

However, his death by Zira would make a good reason for the big exile, while death seems a more fitting punishment, I doubt if Zira were pregnant/with young cubs I too doubt ol' simby could carry out such a harsh sentance...



The idea that Zira, as such an uncaring and calculating parent could not possible be the cubs? mother is, unfortunately not a valid argument. Zira is unbalanced to begin with, and in real life, shelters are full of kids who have been abused by biological parents.I didnt mean to imply that Zira couldnt be a mother just 'cause she's mean and psycho, I was more making a referance to the old 'nature vs nurture' argument, whether 'bad' people come from improper upbringing or are genetically predisposed to it. Obviously Kovu has 'nurture' working against him, as he is being raised by a psycho to be a tool in her delusions of grandeur. If he were the result of Scar x Zira, he would also have the genetics working against him. The fact that he turned out to be good in heart through and through, seems to support that Scar wasnt his father (and going further out on the proverbial limb, that Zira wasnt his mother).

[Simba Marasa]

about Scar + Zira = Kovu. 'Tani, & the Nukster...

genetics is funny. warped parents don't automatically make twisted kids. there is the nature vs. nurture conundrum. my professor, (who is, as it turns out, one of the world's leading evolutionary anthropologists) explained it thus: it's about 1/3 nature (meaning a genetic presiposition towards a certain behavior or trait), 1/3 nurture, (or how society teaches us to respond to those predispositions or traits), and most importantly, 1/3 as personal experience and free will.

Kovu may have been thinking about how his mom's view of the universe may not have jibed with what he could actually see and experience himself. Vitani would have to navagate throught a similar dilemma.

on the other hand, this could expain Nuka. I've wondered why the elephant graveyard was always glowing green...

can you say "radiation"? (Why do you think they called him NUKA?)

[Shatara]

Indeed, you point out exactly why my argument 'supports' and not 'proves' ;) Used in conjunction with other arguments, as Zira's personality seems more likely to claim a cub as Scar's that isnt then the other way around, the way Nuka nearly spats 'Scar wasnt even his father', etc, it illustrates a point of view :P


oh, and lol at nuka/radiation http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/Shatara/bumms/tanising.jpg

[Simba Marasa]

NUKA-ler energy!

[TX-101]

COM'ON... STOP FIGHTING FOR SILLY REASONS. its OK the way it is.


let me tell ya something "Bolj kot me?a? drek, bolj smrdi" It's slovenian proverb. translate it if you want. but it's true.


STOP

[Katari]

Good discussions, everybody; I'll work on a massive answering post for later;)

And TX-101, I see nobody arguing, and what's wrong with our reasons? Seems like a good, reasoned, balanced arguement to me...

[Kiara Serengeti]

Zira is Kovu's mother, of course. And both Tani and Nuka call Zira 'mother'. Quite obviously they are siblings, even if not out of the same father.

Anyway, I think 'Tani sort of cherished Kovu only as the future warrior\king for quite a while. She didn't hate him, but she didn't seem to really love him either--she just had a very power-influenced respect, thinking of him as the cub who'd someday overthrow Simba, and then they'd have beautiful, green Pridelands, plenty to eat and drink.

BTW...Nuka complains about Kovu in one scene, saying, "...Scar wasn't even his father", suggesting that Scar was his (Nuka's) father, and the idea of Kovu avenging Scar, without even having Scar's paternity, was proposterous...?

[Shatara]

Originally posted by TX-101
COM'ON... STOP FIGHTING FOR SILLY REASONS. its OK the way it is.


let me tell ya something "Bolj kot me?a? drek, bolj smrdi" It's slovenian proverb. translate it if you want. but it's true.


STOP Err, this aint fighting. It seems more like half our posts are agreeing with each other if anything. The rest is a friendly exchange of ideas, presenting points of view the others may not have thought of.

If you think this is a fight, you've obviously never seen one.


It's discussions like this that message boards were built for.

[Simba Marasa]

TX: splitting hairs and having serious yet otherwise meaningless discussions has always been at the very heart of serious fandom and it is what we all live for. I mean, if fans don't discuss who is related to whom, or what so-and-so's motivations are, then NO ONE else will!!!

There is too much of Scar in Kovu, besides, he was originally (as has been pointed out previously, umpitty-ump times, ad nauseum) that Kovu was to be Scar's son. So, I am going with the original intent. Just cuz Nuka says "Scar wasn?t even his father" and the cut scene where Kovu says, "but he wasn't my father" (and Zira saying something like, "yeah, but...blah, blah, blah...") doesn?t mean squat. Disney just got cold feet when they figured out that the cousin-to-cousin thing would turn off the squeamish, so they did a rather clumsy rewrite. The artist's design sheets show his evolution as a softend-down version of Scar. And in certain scenes, specifically, Simba?s nightmare, his appearance in the smoke (echoing Scar's arrival right after Mufasa?s death) and the scene where they are all going back to pride rock after the "rescue", when he definitely looks like Scar.

But back to Vitani. It is likely that Kovu?s training would keep the siblings apart from each other and dependant on their mother for emotional support. Divide and conquer. Vitani?s willingness to slug him during the ambush scene when he tried to intervene may be a result of this. Her relationship with Nuka seems to been very deep ? deeper than any relationship she had with Kovu. Yeah, ok, she probably thought that he was a hapless pinhead, and he probably thought that she was a bossy brat, but there were several semi-developed scenes that had more interaction between Nuka and his little sister. Vitani seems to have occupied a quasi-maternal role, keeping Nuka out of trouble, as in the fire-rescue scene where she had to drag him off camera and keep him focused. This may have always been her role with Kovu, and would have allowed her to remain a vital part of her mother?s plans, and by implications, her affections.

[Katari]

My theory on the birth of Kovu is this: During Scar?s reign, he and Zira gave birth to Nuka, a weak and pitiful cub, dependent on his parents for everything. Scar quickly dismissed him as a potential heir, and soon he and Zira had a second child, a daughter named Vitani. Scar named her heiress to his kingdom when he passed away.

Near the time of Vitani?s birth, a rogue lioness entered the Pridelands and gave birth. A party of scavenging hyenas came upon her and killed her, but the cub (Kovu) was spared the same fate by Sarabi?s hunting party, who routed the hyenas and took the cub to Pride Rock with them.

As the only lactating lioness, Zira was given the newborn to care for along with her Vitani. Scar, seeing the benefit of a male heir, betrothed the two cubs as future King and Queen. And so things progressed until Simba?s return and Scar?s demise.

When Scar died, Zira dismissed Vitani as future Queen (believing that brute force was the only way to revenge Scar), and instead raised the two cubs as siblings, with Kovu as the Chosen One. The two younger cubs were too small to know the difference, and Nuka was told to keep his mouth shut ? or else.


If Kovu was indeed Scar's son, I cannot make myself believe that Zira would deny that fact to anyone, even to lie. It's not just like her -- considering the depth of her obvious obession with Scar, if she had his biological son, I have no doubt that she would tell it to anyone who would listen.


I would agree with Vitani looking for attention, but I would not put her in the same category as the pandering Nuka (or other similar characters in other works - Gollum/Smeagol for instance) who jump around clumsily doing anything to attract notice.


I do think that the other Outsiders respected Vitani as a "hunt mistress" of sorts -- surely they had to go hunting at some point -- and someone would need to lead raids into the Pridelands while Zira trained; otherwise, how would Nala know her by name? However, I think that if any of the unnamed Outsiders had protested instead of Vitani, Zira would have responded the same way and the end result would have been the same.


As Simba Marasa pointed out, Simba does look different in SP, but I would argue that this is both the animation team (Australian instead of American) and Simba's diet were different -- it's a big change to fresh meat from grubs and carrion!


And Kovu should have taken way more than a day to overcome his mother's training; at least a week or so. "Upendi" was just an excuse for poor writing, if you ask me.


I wouldn't call the comradarie between Vitani and Nuka "affection", per se, but it does seem a stronger bond than the one she has with Kovu. And as far as Vitani knocking Kovu out of the fight -- that tells me that with her, the greater goal outweighs individuals -- if Kovu is not going to follow his path as Chosen One, then he is worth nothing better than a good kick.

[Raruka]

:confused: Hmmmm....

I think Vitani doesn't really see Kovu as a brother (or lover) at all, but rather as a goal or idealogy placed upon a pedastool. Zira pretty much brainwashed them all into thinking that Kovu was the destined future king, and as such, she treated him a lot differently than the other cubs. I've always felt that Vitani felt somewhat dettached from her brother because of the way their mother idolized him all the time. It may have been hard for her to develop a 'family bond' with him, because of this.

I don't know if that made any sense... :alone: