Debate: Gay Marriages

[Kovu The Lion]

Simple straight out question, that leads to one of the biggest debates in the entire world

Homosexuality, Today its just a thing, tomorrow it could be the world. But thats just an opinion, In the World Homosexuality is looked down upon by many, but not all. Religions also condemn Homosexuality, or Sadomy(sp?)

I've looked at christian beliefs, I've looked at Muslim beliefs, I've looked at life through the athiests eyes, and I've seen what its like through a Homosexual's eyes, and been the but of many a jokes, So I know what it's like to be put down, don't need to hear how bad it is to be one, or how good it is to be one in this thread, Just a simple question thats worth to be debatable, Hopefully.. this won't lead to flame..

Should Gay Marriages be allowed in the United States, and the Earth?

I thinkin other countries the practice of Homosexuality is condemned, and foribidden, also like that of the United States, its not against the law, but its put down upon heavily, I think the only state that allows Gay Marrages in the US is California. I've seen what it's like to be Straight, Homosexual, and Bisexual, Funny thing is, I was the same person that I ever was, just a person that has different likings, and preferences, But hey.. Everyone's different aren't they? So really, i was still just the same as anyone else- Human

What are your views on Gay marrages, Or even better yet.. Homosexual's as a whole?

Once again as a reminder, no flame, I'll ask this to be deleted immediately if need be.

~KtL

[Daniel]

i personally don't see the problem with it.

if they want to get married, i say let them, because technically it's only discrimination on homophobic attitudes that are stopping them.

[nathalie]

Yes.

What's the problem, yeah, ok, man / man - woman / woman, but if they love each other, it shouldn't be any different then man / woman.

I personally have nothing against it.

[Katse]

I... don't really care. >_>

I have nothing against gays, but I'll admit there is a feeling real, real, /real/ deep down inside of me that tells me it's just... not right. I think it's that kind of animal instinct or something. I don't know. However, I almost always don't let that hinder my perception of any homosexuals I meet. I just have the tendency to meet stuck up gays (men, especially) in real life. -__-

Putting that feeling aside, I could honestly care less for the issue. Yes, sorry if I sound insensitive.

[Katse]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
Katse: I find gay/bi people actually tend to be more sociable than straight people in a lot of cases ^_~ ! As a female friend of mine once said: "Gay guys are great; you can go to the shopping mall with them and check out the guys together."

I've heard that before. Funny thing is, I don't like shopping. ;P I think I've just had bad luck. I mean, I get along perfectly with most of the people I meet on here and with gay/bi girls in real life, but I just had a problem with a gay guy in my school last year. He treated me like dirt and I didn't even do anything to him. It's kind of marred the way I look at most gay guys in real life now, sadly. I find it difficult to trust them.

[King Simba]

I voted yes.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with it. C'mon, let's face it, it's up to them in the end, not us. It's not up to other people to make decisions for them. So if they wanna get married or whatever, then that's perfectly fine--let them do it.

[TakaTiger]

If gay people get married, will it destroy my life and pollute the world? i think not =) i vote yes, they should be allowed to

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by SimbaTheLion
Katse: I find gay/bi people actually tend to be more sociable than straight people in a lot of cases ^_~ ! As a female friend of mine once said: "Gay guys are great; you can go to the shopping mall with them and check out the guys together."


I've also heard from girls at school, well actualy it was a census sorta thing going on, 80% of american High school girls of the age 12-18 found it easier to tell a gay person more about there "personal life" and really laughed at this

84% of all american teenaged girls that voted said gay guys were "hot"

[Sombolia]

"84% of all american teenaged girls that voted said gay guys were "hot""

Well, c'mon- it's the whole guy/guy thing, isn't it?



Only California? I thought there were at least a couple more. Hmm.

Anyways, yes.

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Sombolia
"84% of all american teenaged girls that voted said gay guys were "hot""

Well, c'mon- it's the whole guy/guy thing, isn't it?


Hey now don't get me wrong I think girl + Girl is dang hawt :D But er, we won't go there about things.. :E *tries to stay serious* >P

and well, if you asked any guy

99% would say, "a girl and a girl hugging or kissing would be cool"
or something.. I guarantee you it =/

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
99% would say, "a girl and a girl hugging or kissing would be cool"
or something.. I guarantee you it =/

So 1% = gays/George Bush/Christians/etc?

:bleen: lolz.

I wish I could say something more, but there's no debate here, really.

[Ashara]

I'll be the outcast and say "No." It's not because I'm a Christian. I just don't like the idea of it. It's not natural. Go ahead and say what you want.

[Dare]

*shrugs*

Well, they let criminals (convicted rapists, wife-beaters, etc) get married. They let legally mentally disabled people get married. They let my father get married three times with his wonderful track record of divorce...(sanctity of marriage my arse!)

so as far as I'm concerned...hell, why not?
;)

[Darkslash]

At least in the US, it really should be a state-level issue. It's not a matter of "civil rights," totally incomparable to the racial inequality of the greater part of the US' history, so local-level decisions on the matter are entirely appropriate; they're the communitites bearing the burden or receiving the benefit of any public policy they make, and thus should not have a policy (whether pro-gay or anti-gay) forced upon them.

As a personal preference, I believe there are issues of MUCH greater import in the world and which deserve the undivided attention of the US and world community before we worry about relatively petty matters -- the issue of gay marriage must needs pale when juxtaposed with northern Uganda, Darfur, September 11, etc.

[Stormfury]

Yes, because it isn't any of my business.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by S0nique
Yes, because it isn't any of my business.

:gasp: Oh my God, I thought I was the only one on earth that thought that




I don't like seeing good, hard-working Americans discriminated against, and I don't just mean the marriage issue. I mean issues such as donating blood, hate crime protection, hospital visitation rights, power of attorney, discrimination protection, volunteer military service, state-funded health care, adoption, and immigration, all of which are issues for homosexual or bisexual people in the US. An American is an American is an American, plain and simple*. I also don't like what seems like I'm being told that I'm a second-class citizen. Funny thing is, gay people can get married in holy matrimony in a church that will marry them, it's a matter of legal protection.


*Yes, I know not everyone here is American.

[A-non-a-mus]

I'm going to say 'no'

from the christian perspective: you all know the story of 'sodom and ghamora' right? ...

but it's not my place to judge what is right and what is wrong....

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I'm going to say 'no'

from the christian perspective: you all know the story of 'sodom and ghamora' right? ...

but it's not my place to judge what is right and what is wrong....

isn't that in 1st corinthians 6? or 5? Well I think they showed to much affection or what not and were condemned.. or something, But yeah, No christian should judge others, since it says so in the bible, Only god/Chris jesus, can do so :s

~KtL

[TakaTiger]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I'm going to say 'no'

from the christian perspective: you all know the story of 'sodom and ghamora' right? ...

but it's not my place to judge what is right and what is wrong....


Hence Comes forth the name of "Sodomy" :hakuna:

[Sadiki]

it should be their personal business so yes.
Getting married in chirch shouldn't tho. even thought I'm not religious, but since what chrsitanity teaches... I don't think that should be possible, but whats the big deal about gays getting married?

[Zephyr Nexus]

Unequivocally, yes. People should have the right to marriage no matter what their sexual orientation is. It is a simple matter of equality, and one that the younger generation sees loud and clear. Polls have shown that a majority of Americans ages 18-25 think the idea of gay marriage is fine. Gay marriage will become a non-issue in 20 years, accepted by the population.

:kovusmile

To clarify, currently it is only legal in Massachusetts for gays to get married. Don't just assume if its left-wing, it's California (although there was an instance about a year or two ago where the mayor of San Francisco instituted gay marriage in his city until a court intervened about a week later).

[lion_roog]

I believe gay people should be allowed to get married...to me, marriage is more a legal contract than anything else when you get down to what a marriage does for you. But if they want to get married in the church, then they have to abide by the Church's law on marriage and if that means no Gay marriage, then that is that.

[sanngi_kujieleza]

see the whole gay thing..if they want to get married.. let them..it`s they`re choice..

[Sharifu]

Originally posted by Katse
I just have the tendency to meet stuck up gays (men, especially) in real life. -__-

Really? The gay men I have met are really nice and funny.


Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
84% of all american teenaged girls that voted said gay guys were "hot"

I think that's because gay guys are sensitive people... I myself am attracted to sensitive guys. There are sensitive straight guys of course, but I think that's kind of rare.

My thought of the whole issue, is that homosexuality, should be more accepted. I don't think there's anything wrong with them getting married.

I seriously don't think homosexuality is something people choose. Think of it this way, why would you choose to be gay? Homosexuals have a hard enough time being excepted, and are looked down upon. If you had the choice, why would you choose that? Doesn't that make sense? I think homosexuals are born that way, and they can't help the way they feel.

I do feel that it's not natural though, but I don't have anything against it, because I don't think they can help it, and it matters in this life to be in love, and be loved back, to be happy.

[Shadow]

sure why not..love is all the same..

thanks alot Sharifu am a sensative guy ( i think 0.o) am never in to fights and think its really imature ya saying am a gay now?! XP

(lol jk ;3)

[Sadiki]

Shadow she said men can be sensitive too, even it's rare ;)

[Sharifu]

:lol: Yeah I was saying I think it's rare that there are sensitive straight men, but there are some other there. ;)

[Tiikeri]

Yes, I have nothing against gays whatsoever :]

[lionloversam]

Even though my religous views teach me that homosexuality is wrong and gay marraige should not be allowed, I still view them as humans. And being human myself, I see each and every one of them as having as much value as a human as my self. In other words, I don't look down on them because of their lifestyle decission. As it has already been stated, the Christian belief is that homosexuality is wrong. But, it is also taught that there is not a single righteous person. We have all fallen due to sin. And as somebody else has already said goes for me too, who am I to judge them anyway.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Sharifu
:lol: Yeah I was saying I think it's rare that there are sensitive straight men, but there are some other there. ;)

Shadow stole my sensativity...:alone:

[lionloversam]

I like to think of myself as a sensitive guy, I don't know how I come across to most people. But, I don't want to be too sensitive because I may appear as a creep, if you know what I mean.

[ThiagoPE]

Personally i do not have anything against it

[Only-now]

First of all, being sensitive, and being gay have no correlation to one another. If you have met more sensitive gay people, then maybe that is because you hang out around a lot of gay people, more often than straight people. Gay people are not more open socially...that would depend on the person completely seperate from their sexual orientation. I have nothing against gay people...I am not one, so I don't necessarily relate to them..and I do think that whole feminine thing is just funny...but I have no problem and I'm not homophobic. I do however, disagree with gay marriage, as do the majority of people in my country.

My views are not religious in preventing me from accepting this though. Of course, no Christian church should ever marry two people from the same sex, because anyone can tell you that it IS agianst their religion. If they want to intepret it a new way, that is fine..but they aren't following the bible anymore.

I have no problem with giving them certain rights that married people have if they go through a certain process. My problem however, is one, that I don't believe gay people will stop there. It isn't just an issue of getting the rights..they want to call it "marriage" because they want to stir up trouble with the norm. They want to try and force themselves upon straight people and force us to accept them by forcing us to allow them something that only straight people possess. I think if we granted marriage, that they would then begin asking for more.

Also, gay marraige IS bad for society. Did you ever stop to think back to Ancient Greece? The Spartans actually encouraged homosexuality within the military because it would make a stronger bond and you would fight harder for the men next to you. They did NOT however, EVER leagalize gay marriage in any way. They recognized that is was not beneficial to society. There have even been people from other coutnries that HAVE legalized it, that now say it is a problem. That multiple marriages are up..because someone will marry a man and a woman. May I ask..can gays have children? Obviously, the answer is no. So...why should they be allowed certain tax breaks, etc etc..when they do not contribute to society with children or a family?

I just find it strange..that homosexuals need the ability to get "married" What does that mean? Do they want the churches to be forced to marry them? Do they just want the legal benefits? As someone stated, homosexuality isn't against the law...and more people are accepting of it. We don't have a problem with gays living together, going places, having their own clubs, etc etc. What more do they want? They have to have the privelage of getting married as well? Marriage is NOT a right..it IS a privelage. We can deny you the right to marry a straight person as well...but they somehow think they can demand the right to get married when in reality there are little if no reasons for them to change a thousand year old tradition? Although I have not found every justification against it yet..I also have the feeling deep down that I KNOW that this is not right..and THAT along with this info is why I voted no.

~Kiva

[nathalie]

I don't think anyone should interfear with the fact if they wanna get married or not.

They have to marry themselves, not the people who makes those laws or the people who say they can't.

[Dyani]

Only-Now *May I ask..can gays have children? Obviously, the answer is no. So...why should they be allowed certain tax breaks, etc etc..when they do not contribute to society with children or a family?*
I'm just a bit offended by that hun. Just because people can't have children doesn;t mean they should be discriminated against. My own folks couldn't have children so they adopted me when I was a baby. Unless you meant that another way of course :)

To be ontopic - the more equality the better. Finally, some sensible people saw that gays were being discrimminated against and put action into stopping it! Gay marriage rocks and it just makes homosexuality less of a taboo subject (well, thats the way i have been brought up, thinking that homosexuality is a taboo)
Its like discimminating between races of humans.. *my god you have a different colour of skin???? You must be inferior!* Don't we have the same blood people? Are we not all humans?

[Sharifu]

First of all Only-now... I do not hang out with more gay guys then straight people, I don't know too many homosexuals in person.

I think homosexuals want to be able to be married for the rights... I remember my mom saying, how when someone is dying, and in the hospital, they might say that only the spouse can see the dying person, so homosexuals can't because they aren't legally married... That for example, is why I think why homosexuals should be able to have that right.

[Stormfury]

If such matters were to be legalized, such scrutiny would be overlooked by heterosexuality. Eventually same-sex marriages will be completely legitimate, but not under the eyes of God ...

[Juniper]

Originally posted by S0nique
but not under the eyes of God ...


Not under the eyes of some people's God. My religion has no problem with homosexuality.

@Only Now: Gay people can adopt children, as can straight couples, and thus I see no reason why not to have a tax break. I plan on adopting a child if the person I marry is male; though this may not be the case in Ohio come November.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Only-now
Also, gay marraige IS bad for society. Did you ever stop to think back to Ancient Greece? The Spartans actually encouraged homosexuality within the military because it would make a stronger bond and you would fight harder for the men next to you. They did NOT however, EVER leagalize gay marriage in any way. They recognized that is was not beneficial to society. There have even been people from other coutnries that HAVE legalized it, that now say it is a problem. That multiple marriages are up..because someone will marry a man and a woman. May I ask..can gays have children? Obviously, the answer is no. So...why should they be allowed certain tax breaks, etc etc..when they do not contribute to society with children or a family?


Ahem, please get your ancient Greek facts straight.

First off, there was no sexual orientation as we see it today: you were not straight, you were not gay, you just were. And so, for a man, his stages of relationships would be as such: an older man would take a young man under his wing as his sexual partner, and as they young man grew up he'd then take on a younger male partner; after this cycle the guy would marry to have kids*. In fact, the ancient Greeks believed the only sexual relationships of real worth were male/male, as men could only fulfil each other. So, yes, homosexuality was not encouraged, it was just normality.

(*of course it was not always like this, for example Achilles and Patroclus.)

And as for your point of not being able to have kids. Don't be ridiculous. What about old couples? Infertile couples? Couples who aren't sexually active? People who don't want kids? Can't they marry?


I'm going to say 'no'

from the christian perspective: you all know the story of 'sodom and ghamora' right? ...

but it's not my place to judge what is right and what is wrong....

Oh yes, that's a fantasic story! I mean, it promotes rape and abuse of women in such a way that is sickening, and also the objectification of them. At the end of a day it was just written by a misogynist, at the time when male/male relationships were trying to be destroyed by the Jews etc.

Anyway... yes, I'm fine with it. Even if I wasn't, that's not a good enough reason to stop gay marriage. Hell, people are still against interracial marriages, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. We have 'em over here, and our society isn't falling apart. =]

[Xanahti]

Simply, Yes. I find it akward that there's even a discussion going on in our modern society, where everybody is supposed to be threated like equals.

[Timon]

Originally posted by Katse
I have nothing against gays, but I'll admit there is a feeling real, real, /real/ deep down inside of me that tells me it's just... not right. I think it's that kind of animal instinct or something. I don't know. However, I almost always don't let that hinder my perception of any homosexuals I meet.

I agree with that completely.

I've met many gay people in my life, and although I'm not friends with any, just aquantences, I don't have a problem with it. But I don't know, no matter how my head tells me that it doesn't matter what they do, deep down I feel that it just isn't natural, God didn't intent it to be that way. I was brought up a strict Catholic, so maybe thats why I feel this way, I really can't describe it. But I would never judge a person because of their sexual preferance, I would judge them as a person, just the same as I judge everyone else.

Gay marriage doesn't bother me, it's not like it effects my life so I don't see why they shouldn't.

The only thing that I do dislike about some homosexuals is when they are so in your face about it, and feel the need to mention their sexuality to you in every other sentence. That irritates me. You don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

[Juniper]

Originally posted by Timon
\You don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

Now, you see, I disagree with that. Yes, I'm annoyed by the homosexual people that flaunt it, but I'm pretty sure the average teenager flaunts their sexuality just as much. I went to a large mall a few days ago, I had to have seen at least 50-75 teenage males with t-shirts that have obscene, sexually oriented material on the shirt, as well as an outline of a naked woman, two people having sex, or what have you; they are almost always heterosexual in nature. I probably saw 10 heterosexual couples making out in public, and quite a few other blatanly heterosexual actions. Does that make it "Wrong?" Not really my place to decide, but I do think the average young adult flaunts their sexuality quite a bit.

[Dyani]

ah, but its society that can make them that way. its not like teens have much of a choice when its up in ur face. Sex is so overrated. its a natural occurance that people try to make even more exciting so that people who don't do it, or do 'enough' of it feel inferior. Yeash..

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
isn't that in 1st corinthians 6? or 5? Well I think they showed to much affection or what not and were condemned.. or something, But yeah, No christian should judge others, since it says so in the bible, Only god/Chris jesus, can do so :s

~KtL

the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?... that's in genesis chapter 19...


Originally posted by Nephilim
Oh yes, that's a fantasic story! I mean, it promotes rape and abuse of women in such a way that is sickening, and also the objectification of them.

It doesn't promote any of that... :eww: those cities were both destroyed because of sins like that... I'm not sure what version of the story you've read, but try reading genesis chapter 19, in a bible, that's where the true story of Sodom and Gomorrah is located


[i]At the end of a day it was just written by a misogynist, at the time when male/male relationships were trying to be destroyed by the Jews etc.[/B]

Jews weren't even called 'Jews' back then... this was back when 'Abraham' was living.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
It doesn't promote any of that... :eww: those cities were both destroyed because of sins like that... I'm not sure what version of the story you've read, but try reading genesis chapter 19, in a bible, that's where the true story of Sodom and Gomorrah is located



Jews weren't even called 'Jews' back then... this was back when 'Abraham' was living.

I know the Bible well enough, thank you.

"Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them."

And similarly, from Judges:

"Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing.

But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night."

So yes, pretty much it runs along the line of "please don't have gay sex, but please, feel free to rape my daughters."

The fact that they weren't called Jews does not change my point.

[A-non-a-mus]

yes, but in both situations they refused the daughter(s)

in judges, they had raped and killed his concubine, ... and this was the result of that:

judges 20:8 All the people rose as one man, saying, "None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we'll do to Gibeah: We'll go up against it as the lot directs. 10 We'll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for all this vileness done in Israel." 11 So all the men of Israel got together and united as one man against the city.

12 The tribes of Israel sent men throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, "What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now surrender those wicked men of Gibeah so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel."

46 On that day twenty-five thousand Benjamite swordsmen fell, all of them valiant fighters. 47 But six hundred men turned and fled into the desert to the rock of Rimmon, where they stayed four months. 48 The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire.

so it still as I have said, does not support acts like those...

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Timon
don't get straight people boasting that they like the opposite sex, so why should some gay people do it?

Hmm, Ever been to a Public High School?

I hear all the time about how people want to get wasted and have sex with their girl friends, or how great a "mater" she is, or how good she is in the bed, or the opposite way around... But straight's don't ever boast do they *raises brow* :s

[Dyani]

KTL - I agree, yeash it gets on your nerves! "Yeah dude, I like totally screwed her" or some other crude language used. Its pretty pathetic really...

[Darkslash]

Originally posted by Xanahti
I find it akward that there's even a discussion going on in our modern society, where everybody is supposed to be threated [sic] like equals.
Awkward that we discuss issues? Why? Whether or not you agree or even like another's opinion, they remain at the end of the day valuable opinion, the product of thought on behalf of another.

Dismissing one side of an argument because you believe it should "not even be discussed" is hypocrisy equitable with the double-standard I would assume you believe marriage is held to.

Yes, we discuss because there will be consequences whatever the outcome of an issue will be: it's public policy. Who will pay, and who will gain, from a decision? It isn't and shouldn't be an arbitrary process. Decisions in "our modern society" demand discussion.

[Xanahti]

I was talking about the discussion in general, not only Lea. Most people agree with that there should not be any discriminations of minorites like black people and women, but when it comes to homosexuals, it's perfectly alright.
I mean would you ever start a thread discussing whetever or not black people should be allowed to ride the same buses as white people? I bet you wouldn't, you just don't do that, even if it's just an opinion it would not be accepted by the forum(depends on what kind of forum though)
I think homosexuals should be threated with the same respect.

I'm perfectly aware of that rasism and nazism exists, and that people are threated differently because of the color of their skin, but like only 200 years ago black people were slaves, and they're certainly not that now. Gay couples have never been fully accepted, and I know that they're threated so much better nowadays, but when the church keeps on discriminating them, I just don't see how we will ever come close to having a equal world.

our world has changed so much, and at the same time, not at all. it's frustrating to know that people are threated differently because of their sexuality when we've come so far in respecting and accepting other races and religions. Not allowing gay marriage just seem very obsolete.

It's kind of funny how everything else in the bible can be adjusted after the time we live in, but when it's homosexuality, wow, God must've written that in capitals with a lot of !!1!1's after.


So my point is there shouldn't HAVE to be a discussion about it.

[Xinithian]

^I totally agree with what you said, well done. Also, I don't see why most Christians are so upset with homosexuality when Jesus never made a comment about homosexuality. The only two people that I can remember referring to homosexuality was Moses (who was part of the Old Testament, which doesn't give people salvation), and Paul (who never actually knew Jesus and wasn't one of his disciples). I could see why they would hate homosexuality if Jesus had specifically said that it was a sin, but he didn't.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Xinithian
^I totally agree with what you said, well done. Also, I don't see why most Christians are so upset with homosexuality when Jesus never made a comment about homosexuality. The only two people that I can remember referring to homosexuality was Moses (who was part of the Old Testament, which doesn't give people salvation), and Paul (who never actually knew Jesus and wasn't one of his disciples). I could see why they would hate homosexuality if Jesus had specifically said that it was a sin, but he didn't.

Agreed.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a269/caiconfiend/RandomJesus.jpg

[Darkslash]

So my point is there shouldn't HAVE to be a discussion about it.
Even if the discussion were to bring you to a greater understanding about the issue, it wasn't worth having?

One can't expect one's point of view to be accepted by all blindly and silently -- isn't that part of the inference the cartoon above applies to Christianity (hypocrisy)?

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Dyani
Sex is so overrated.

Not to stray too far off topic or disrespect you but... LOL!

I still ponder though... how long it'll take to consummate lawfully homosexual wedlock... probably until separation of church and state . . . ?

[Muruwa]

I personally don't approve of homosexuality, I just don't think its right/natural, though I don't judge a person based upon their sexual preferences. Can't say I know any gay people on a personal level, but I've seen and briefly met some I'm sure. And about religion accepting it, why should they have to? If the bible is against it and they follow the bible than why should they change their beliefs because a majority tells them that they have to approve? Isn't this the kind of thinking you're trying to fight against? I know, this sort of thing could easily be applied to racism (or other various forms of discrimination), but if you're not actively trying to take away a person's natural rights, why should you have to approve of what they're doing? In the end I suppose it's about choice, if that's the way you choose to live than that's how you're going to live whether people approve of it or not (and you're not doing anything illegal of course).
But perhaps the issue is about limits. If gay people are allowed to get married because they truly love each other, can the same idea be used with polygamy? The line needs to be drawn somewhere and that I think is the true debate.
By the way (someone correct me if I'm wrong) California actually voted against having gay marriage leaglized, but San Francisco decided it didn't care and went ahead to perform gay marriages. If I remember correctly, those marriages were made void weren't they?

[Son-Goku]

First of all, it's none of my business, nor anyone elses to say who you'd love and thus being homosexual. I agree with the quote "If any of you is without sin, let him cast the first stone".

And for the part that annoys me. Hope anyone doesn't get this personally, but... what's the big deal about mariage anyway? I mean, sure, say you legally get maried, but the church will never allow it. What then?. I know that at some point in my life i will marry a girl ( or not... lol XD ). How will that make me different in the face of law from someone who's homosexual and got legally maried? So yeah, i had that mariage thing in churh. Boo-hoo, it was boring anyway :zzz:

There will always be people who disagree, always were, always will be. And like i said, i'm pro for legally marriage but not to be oficiated in a church.
And i know some of you guys gave out a reasonable amount of info regarding this matter and at some point i read something about adopting. Sure, they have this right, everyone does; if you can afford and want to adopt a child, then by all means, do it; you're a hero in eyes, but i simply can't imagine what the kid will think about at some point of his/her life.. where's "mom" or "dad"? Now i'm phychologist but i say that will leave some pretty deep emotional scars.
I've been raised without my dad since 11 so i know what it feels like, even if i don't like to admit it,... it's not the same.
And here we have the same dilema in the case of abortion... are you or anyone else the best person to decide what's good and wrong for the kid? I honestly don't know on that one. I'm still arguing with myself wether that's good or bad.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Xanahti
I was talking about the discussion in general, not only Lea. Most people agree with that there should not be any discriminations of minorites like black people and women, but when it comes to homosexuals, it's perfectly alright.
I mean would you ever start a thread discussing whetever or not black people should be allowed to ride the same buses as white people? I bet you wouldn't, you just don't do that, even if it's just an opinion it would not be accepted by the forum(depends on what kind of forum though)
I think homosexuals should be threated with the same respect.

we don't post any thread about white and blacks in the same bus because the answer is an obvious 'yes' of course that'd be allow... likewise, we never make a thread about weither or not gays should right in the same bus because it too would be another obvious 'yes they should be allowed to. Christians don't dislike gays alright, we dislike 'sin' and in the bible it does say multiple times 'homosexuality' is counted as a sin. However that doesn't mean the one doing the sin should be held for this, no, for Jesus is able to forgive ALL sins, therefore, we should too. Also, as stated before, we arn't the judges.


Originally posted by Xanahti
I'm perfectly aware of that rasism and nazism exists, and that people are threated differently because of the color of their skin, but like only 200 years ago black people were slaves, and they're certainly not that now. Gay couples have never been fully accepted, and I know that they're threated so much better nowadays, but when the church keeps on discriminating them, I just don't see how we will ever come close to having a equal world.

an equil world will never exist... until this one comes to an end. A new heaven and a new earth will be made, where "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." ~rev 21:4 only at that appointed time will there exist a equal world...

and the church isn't disccriminating against them either... they are allowed in, all are accepted at a true church, they just won't marry a gay couple, for it is said in the bible, that it is wrong, therefore they cannot defile the sancuary of God by accepting sin as good. If they want to be married, go ahead, just not in a church nor by a christian, otherwise the words from the preacher's mouth will not be valid anyways. Christians may acknowledge there are homosexuals, and they will allow them into the church, however, they cannot bend over backwards and change the words of the bible because those whom are not even christians demand to.

Revelations 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."


Originally posted by Xanahti
our world has changed so much, and at the same time, not at all. it's frustrating to know that people are threated differently because of their sexuality when we've come so far in respecting and accepting other races and religions. Not allowing gay marriage just seem very obsolete.

it goes far back... and so does christianity... so does homosexuality... so do many things... if one thing is obsolete, shouldn't the rest be?


Originally posted by Xanahti
It's kind of funny how everything else in the bible can be adjusted after the time we live in, but when it's homosexuality, wow, God must've written that in capitals with a lot of !!1!1's after.

what is this 'everything else' that has been adjusted?
nothing in the bible can be adjusted... refer to the verse stated above... nothing in the bible should ever be adjusted.

[Ashara]

:uhno: Where'd you get the idea that ALL Christians are homophobes? I'm a very strong Christian, and I have plenty of gay friends. I love the people, I just don't like what they do. And where do you get the idea of being gay as natural? There are two genders for a reason, ya know. ;)

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Son-Goku
where's "mom" or "dad"? Now i'm phychologist but i say that will leave some pretty deep emotional scars.
I've been raised without my dad since 11 so i know what it feels like, even if i don't like to admit it,... it's not the same.
And here we have the same dilema in the case of abortion... are you or anyone else the best person to decide what's good and wrong for the kid? I honestly don't know on that one. I'm still arguing with myself wether that's good or bad.

I assume you meant you're "not" a psychologist, so I'll try and go over this from a psychological point of view.

First of all, mentally being raised by just your mother/just your father/two fathers/adopted parents and so on has no no effect on children what so ever. Rather, the problem arrises with attachments. Now, attachment is learnt through classical or operant conditioning from a very early age, and that's how you become attached to your primary care giver. For example (classical conditioning) a child is hungry, it is pleased when it recieves foot and so associates the feeling with the food-giver. Basically, attachment through reward. But anyway.

Problems arrise through deprivation (broken attachments) which is basically what you're saying was the problem of you not growing up with your father, I would imagine. Privation, too (never having an attachment in the first place) causes problems.

So basically, what I'm trying to say is that's it's not who raises you, but the quality of the care.

... or something. It's late.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Ashara
:uhno: Where'd you get the idea that ALL Christians are homophobes? I'm a very strong Christian, and I have plenty of gay friends. I love the people, I just don't like what they do. And where do you get the idea of being gay as natural? There are two genders for a reason, ya know. ;) Hardly anything we do isn't natural. Medicine is unnatural. Is it wrong to take medicine, because it's not natural? Why would you consider something wrong, just because it's not natural (although in some rare cases there are gay animals)?

Also, if you're arguing that there are two genders for a reason, is protected sex wrong? Isn't it wrong to have protected sex to avoid pregnancy? 'Cause pregnancy is part of the natural process ;) .

Also, I find it odd how people say, "I like gay people", yet they don't want them to get married. If you liked them, why would you withdraw the right to get married? If you liked somebody, wouldn't you want to see them happy, and allow them to live a better life? It would be like if I said, "I like Christians", yet voted for a law that made it illegal to build churches in my country. If I like Christians, I would vote against a law like that.

[Ashara]

Protected sex is needed. Without it, we'd have a million kids running around. Being gay doesn't help anything.

Like I said before,I like the people, not what they do. Anyone can try to prove me wrong about gay people. You can give me as many excuses as you want. I'm still not going to approve of it, though.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Ashara
Protected sex is needed. Without it, we'd have a million kids running around. Being gay doesn't help anything. But what I'm trying to say is, if you say that gay sex is immoral because it's unnatural, straight sex with protection is immoral because it's unnatural too. So basically, it's contradictory to think that gay sex is wrong because it's unnatural, yet support straight sex with protection. Also, what do you mean by "being gay doesn't help anything"?

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Ashara
Protected sex is needed. Without it, we'd have a million kids running around. Being gay doesn't help anything.

I am so, so confused by this statement. Uh, obviously if you're in a gay relationship, you're not going to have any children of your own. So.. protected sex is needed so there won't be any more kids, but gay sex isn't helping that?

Er. Maybe I misinterpreted you?

[Stormfury]

@Xinithian: You made some good points.

When it comes down to it, people are going to do what they want to do... Nor science, nor God will stop them. People think that being homosexual is wrong because it'll tare down the moral fibers. Let the truth be known that it is a selective process that Nature has intended on using to path anew.

Humanity's biggest fear is change.

[Storm90]

I voted yes.

Marriage is about comminment; not about about religion, age, color, physical disablity or...gender. Marriage is about love, even if its with the same sex.

I really don't see the problem of gay marriage, maybe its the way I think.

I have a friend who more reglious than I am and she is totally anti-gay. She hates gay marriage and thinks its very wrong. In fact, we both had a fight over this subject since she was making fun of them and I happen to have friends that are gay/bi. :grrr: She really pissed me off then and I didn't talk to her for days.

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Ashara
Protected sex is needed. Without it, we'd have a million kids running around. Being gay doesn't help anything.

if you want to have sex, it should be without protection, because that should only be shared with someone you'd devote your entire live to, seeing as protected sex is the same as gay sex, You get nothing from it, but what we call ecstacy(Pleasure)

:s

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
if you want to have sex, it should be without protection, because that should only be shared with someone you'd devote your entire live to, seeing as protected sex is the same as gay sex, You get nothing from it, but what we call ecstacy(Pleasure)

:s

Yesssss, but the fact of the matter is that some don't want kids, but they do want to have sex.

Also, I disagree with you- protected/gay sex should be about more than just pleasure, but, eh, different topic.

[Stormfury]

@Storm90: You will have to forgive people like that because they're inauspicious. Usually what I do if homosexual talk becomes a cross-lateral topic (not on a bulletin board or anything...) I tend to subdue myself from saying anything... as aforementioned... it's going to happen anyway... and what's the point of squabbling the stubborn, but that's the way I feel.

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Sombolia
Yesssss, but the fact of the matter is that some don't want kids, but they do want to have sex.

Also, I disagree with you- protected/gay sex should be about more than just pleasure, but, eh, different topic.

er..

Thats what I said, I think sex should not be because people want it, but because they want to carry on a future generation of the species, and pass on their genes. Other than that, it should not be done in my opinion ;)

[Stormfury]

Hey KTL, I want my cake and eat it too! :lol:

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by S0nique
Hey KTL, I want my cake and eat it too! :lol:

If only I knew where that came from XD

Er.. *gives you chocolate cake* Oo? :D

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
If only I knew where that came from XD

Er.. *gives you chocolate cake* Oo? :D

Cake is sex, so thank-you very much! :cheese: :D :lol:

[Kovu The Lion]

I seriously fail to see where Cake is sex Xx Sex involved inser... Nvm ;) You all know xD

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
er..

Thats what I said, I think sex should not be because people want it, but because they want to carry on a future generation of the species, and pass on their genes. Other than that, it should not be done in my opinion ;)

Er.. that's not what I said.

What I meant was that even if you're having gay/protected sex, it should still hold some meaning beyond pleasure. IE, with someone you love as opposed to some stranger you met at a bar, y'know?

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Sombolia
Er.. that's not what I said.

What I meant was that even if you're having gay/protected sex, it should still hold some meaning beyond pleasure. IE, with someone you love as opposed to some stranger you met at a bar, y'know?

oh, the way you worded it made me think differently ;) Sorry Sombolia :hugs: ^^

[Only-now]

first I wanna clarify that I did know that cycle about ancient Greece...my point was that they still didnt ALLOW MARRIAGE between a man and another man, etc. There was a reason for this in my mind.

All I can say is that I believe that gay marriage will have horrible social implications on family, morals, and even the economy. Above all, it is just not normal..and should never be made to seem as such.

~Kiva

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Only-now
All I can say is that I believe that gay marriage will have horrible social implications on family, morals, and even the economy.

Like what? I've heard so many people say that, but they never say what "horrible social implications".

[Only-now]

Well, the only reason I didnt name them is because it would take a long time to explain..and I dont just want to post a link. Plus, I can tell that this debate isn't worth having here because I will just be outnumbered, and there are a lot of young, idealistic as well as bisexual or gay people here. I am not going to waste my time trying to debate something with someone who isn't going to change their mind..just as I dont want anyone wasting their time with me. If something changes my mind, I will let everyone know...but until then, I might just read on this topic.

~Kive

[Stormfury]

The point isn't to change one's mind. It, at the very least, is to understand.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Sombolia
What I meant was that even if you're having gay/protected sex, it should still hold some meaning beyond pleasure. IE, with someone you love as opposed to some stranger you met at a bar, y'know?

I agree, sex should never mean 'pleasure' ... for if it does, it's likely to not be about love atall... just some desire... with gays... there's no reason for sex... most people will confuse sex for 'love' or has some "if you love 'em you have to have sex with 'em" thing... but no... if it were true love, it'd not need to depend on sex... unfortunatly, for gays, this means they are more like good friends rather than a couple. Thus is not really built on love, rather, merely a lust or strong desire... or perhaps there's a missing hole you are trying to fill, yet can't for some reason. Thus resorting to sex...

Also marriage does mean more than just a paper... marrage symbolises the binding of two souls into one, for the rest of your life as how it should be, which is why one should be very careful in choosing which ONE they wish to spend life with... (none of the 'multiple wives/husbands' thing, that simply means you have commited 'adultry') True love will last, anything short of that won't, or will develop many problems in life... two souls of... well like a magnet, same side don't stick, they need the other for it to work...

ehm, well let me explain it this way:

In the beginning there was man created, the man asked God for some companion. God took one ribe from man and thus made woman (called woman, for out of man she was made) [if you're not christian, just assume the above is true for the time alright?]
Now, as it is, man is the ribcage with one rib missing, like a puzzle lacking one piece, they seek to find the final piece that will make them whole. Now woman is the same, only instead of needing someone to fill a hole, they are the rib, that, like a puzzle, will only fit into one space, they seek the right man, the right puzzle with the right interlocking hole in his soul to fill. Somewhere out there, for men, the right one for them is out there, amungst a mass of many pieces. For women, the right puzzle is out there amungst a whole mass of puzzles.

Now, you can't expect to fill one missing pice of a puzzle by putting another puzzle with it can you? (go ahead, make two puzzles with one piece missing in each and try to fit one in the missing piece of the other [I garuntee it won't fit, you'll still have two puzzles with a piece still missing from each]) can two ribcages be made into one? Now, likewise, put only two pieces together, does it complete the puzzle?... will two ribs make a ribcage? No... it won't and can't ... true love is only a complete puzzle/ribcage. You have to find that one right for you. Sure, in the dating stage of life you may try out different puzzle pieces, to see if they fit right (or find a certain puzzle to fit into) as a puzzle, only one piece is out there, and no matter how you try, you cannot force a wrong piece into place. (or force yourself to fill a space) Thus you two will have too keep seeking until you find the right piece/space right for you, thus making both of you completed together to form one [marriage]
Remember, you'll always have an emptyness inside until you find true love.

well, long winded, but you see what I'm trying to say right? ...

[Sharifu]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
if you want to have sex, it should be without protection, because that should only be shared with someone you'd devote your entire live to, seeing as protected sex is the same as gay sex, You get nothing from it, but what we call ecstacy(Pleasure)

:s

Um, what? You are kidding right?

Well if that's the case, I should never have sex, because I don't think I ever want kids... (It's undecided for now)

I do agree with you that you should only have sex with the one you love and only them, the person you want to share your life with... But I think it's dumb for them not to use protected sex if they want... Lots of people don't want kids, what's wrong with that? Sex is love making... I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to share that love, but not wanting to have kids.

[Sombolia]

@Only-now: You're right; it's not gonna change my mind, but I am interested in what you have to say nonetheless.


Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I agree, sex should never mean 'pleasure' ... for if it does, it's likely to not be about love atall... just some desire... with gays... there's no reason for sex... most people will confuse sex for 'love' or has some "if you love 'em you have to have sex with 'em" thing... but no... if it were true love, it'd not need to depend on sex... unfortunatly, for gays, this means they are more like good friends rather than a couple. Thus is not really built on love, rather, merely a lust or strong desire... or perhaps there's a missing hole you are trying to fill, yet can't for some reason. Thus resorting to sex...

Again, not what I was saying at all. No, I don't think you should have sex simply because of pleasure.. but I am not saying that gay sex is pointless either. You're right, love shouldn't depend on sex.. but I agree with Sharifu.

And "good friends"? Buh? So.. relationships are not based on sex, but if you don't have sex, you're just friends. Riiiight.

Two guys or two girls can have just as much of a loving relationship as a girl and a guy.. just because they're the same gender, it's automatically not love, just lust? Maybe it's because it's late, but I'm not really following this.

[King Simba]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
if you want to have sex, it should be without protection
Uhh, I disagree and I agree with Fu'ey and Sombi on this one.

I know people who use protection for having sex mostly because they don't want kids yet--they do it for love making instead. I don't blame them either. You don't have to have sex with or without protection. It just comes by preference and choice really--like for example, if the couple want a baby then try plan A (without protection) but if the couple doesn't want a baby then try plan B and use some sort of protection.

If you get what I mean?


that should only be shared with someone you'd devote your entire live to

But yeah, I do agree with what you said about only having sex with the person you love and them only.

[Sharifu]

Originally posted by Sombolia
You're right, love shouldn't depend on sex..

Yeah, I do agree with that. But still I think it's a good idea to use protection, for the reasons I said before.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Sombolia
Again, not what I was saying at all. No, I don't think you should have sex simply because of pleasure.. but I am not saying that gay sex is pointless either. You're right, love shouldn't depend on sex.. but I agree with Sharifu.

And "good friends"? Buh? So.. relationships are not based on sex, but if you don't have sex, you're just friends. Riiiight.

not quite what I was trying to say... I know sex isn't pointless, ... yet also I know it should be the end result... shouldn't have sex until you complete the triangle of love first...

and about the ''good friends' thing, I didn't mean it like 'no sex = no relationship' ... nono, What I ment was more along the lines of, good friends can enjoy being around other friends, eat together/etc ... and even so much as hug... however, what more can a gay whom doesn't go for sex do? ... smooch? ... invade the other's personal space?... really there's not much more they can do.. as 'good friends' do... (apart from smooching, etc) that's what I ment to say ...

EDIT:


Originally posted by Sharifu
Sex is love making...

not true... you can NOT 'make' love, love is just there... though, I know what you mean to say 'sex is an end result of a show of passion and love you share for the other' ... In my opinion, that's what it should remain as...

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Sharifu
Um, what? You are kidding right?

Well if that's the case, I should never have sex, because I don't think I ever want kids... (It's undecided for now)

I do agree with you that you should only have sex with the one you love and only them, the person you want to share your life with... But I think it's dumb for them not to use protected sex if they want... Lots of people don't want kids, what's wrong with that? Sex is love making... I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting to share that love, but not wanting to have kids.


Mkay you disagree, so you say now

that if you want to show your love to someone, you have sex with them Cause that is so what I got out of that post ;)

[Sharifu]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
not true... you can NOT 'make' love, love is just there... though, I know what you mean to say 'sex is an end result of a show of passion and love you share for the other' ... In my opinion, that's what it should remain as...

Yeah, I didn't mean that sex makes love... I never meant that at all. I am glad you see what I mean though.

Edit:


Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
Mkay you disagree, so you say now

that if you want to show your love to someone, you have sex with them Cause that is so what I got out of that post ;)

No no no. -_- That is not what I meant at all. You can show love lots of ways without sex.

Let me ask you this, what if someone stays together with another, even gets married, but the couple doesn't want kids? So you think they should never have sex? (If they want to have sex, I was never saying people have to have sex to show love) -_-

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Sharifu
Yeah, I didn't mean that sex makes love... I never meant that at all. I am glad you see what I mean though.

yeah, I just was clearifying that in case any other may not have seen what you ment...

I always cringe everytime I hear sex refered to as 'making love'... it really goes to show the one saying it really has no idea what 'love' is if that's what they think makes it ...

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Sharifu

No no no. -_- That is not what I meant at all. You can show love lots of ways without sex.

Let me ask you this, what if someone stays together with another, even gets married, but the couple doesn't want kids? So you think they should never have sex? (If they want to have sex, I was never saying people have to have sex to show love) -_-

If you are a christian, No I don't think you should, for god made sex possible for one reason, to make a future generation, not to show love, or have pleasure, even though that brings it.

if not, oh well.. Do it lol, Though I have no problem if people do it, I don't classify it as right, I'd rather just go along with teasing one another.. as that's funner anyways ;)

[Nephilim]

Because gay people don't have protected sex? That's a new one on me!

You know, I think people make too much out of sex. At the end of the day, it's just sex. Hell, do it because you enjoy it and the other person consents. Just be careful. :secret:

[Stormfury]

|| Agrees.

[Neola]

||Disagrees.

"Do it because you enjoy it and the other person consents." sounds like sex wouldn't need to be based on love. In my opinion, (and as said before) sex is something special you should only share with the person you really love. Not try out various peeps to see "which one's best" or somethin. Variety's not akways the spice of life.

Thus I think gay marriage is wrong (though I have nothing against gays or lesbians, they can do whatever they want) because I can't imagine how there could actually be something like love without/before sex.
If it's just about having equal rights as straight couples, then I don't mind. Isn't there something which gives homosexual couples those right but without actually being married?

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Neola
"Do it because you enjoy it and the other person consents." sounds like sex wouldn't need to be based on love. In my opinion, (and as said before) sex is something special you should only share with the person you really love. Not try out various peeps to see "which one's best" or somethin. Variety's not akways the spice of life.

Hmm... interesting. Sex is a primordial urge. You can't blame people for wanting it. I do agree on one thing, it is special; oh indeed...

[Neola]

Well, if it's a primordial urge, it surely is not an urge of the pleasure sex brings but of reproduction. Thus you shouldn't have sex without protection otherwise it would be senseless, right?

So, if you think sex is something special, why do you come up with this whole primordial urge-thing? Isn't that a little contradictory?

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Neola
Well, if it's a primordial urge, it surely is not an urge of the pleasure sex brings but of reproduction. Thus you shouldn't have sex without protection otherwise it would be senseless, right?

So, if you think sex is something special, why do you come up with this whole primordial urge-thing? Isn't that a little contradictory?

You yourself will have to find out 'why' it is special. Reproduction is a pleasure to live on forever. Use protection if need be, sterile or not; there are diseases out there, though protection isn't a guarantee.

[Zaya]

Marriages...why not? men/woman marriages? why not? lesbian marriages? Why not? Gay marriages? Why not? I don't think it makes you that different or special if you are in any of these so called "groups", it's just which characteristics you prefer in your partner...I loooove men, I'm obsessed with men, but hey, If I just happened to like a female better and wanted to spend the rest of my life with her...again...why not?

As to sex, I believe we had that debate already going on in some other thread and I seriously don't get it why some can't understand that sex is many times "just sex" like Neph said...even if you love someone, you don't always have the oh so movie-like, so sensitive-all-over-in-love sex ;)

[Monai]

I agree with it, because... well, listen to this (http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-gay_marriage.mp3).

:p

WARNING: Contains Adult language

[Neola]

You should warn them, Monai...adult language, remember :bleen:

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Zaya
As to sex, I believe we had that debate already going on in some other thread and I seriously don't get it why some can't understand that sex is many times "just sex" like Neph said...even if you love someone, you don't always have the oh so movie-like, so sensitive-all-over-in-love sex ;)

'sex' is not 'just sex' it's what comes at the end ... the end result, last in line... it is something speacial, that two share when they wish to start a family... and a strong show of passion adn love one feels to the other.

also movie-like is completely fake... that's one of the main things that promote the 'wrong' way to being in love with someone, and does in fact not come from love or even show it... movies are one of the main reasons 'sex' is thought so little of.

[nathalie]

You say it's that, someone says it's that.

You can't really change an opinion of someone, and you can't really argue about an opinion (meaning, that if this person believes in his/her opinion).

And if you do, we can still be going at it till next Christmas.

And how did we end up with talking about sex anyways.
Thought this thread was ment for something else.

[Neola]

Yeah, somehow we always end up doing this, hehe. Someone please start a thread about sex? :P
Though I have to agree with A-non-a-mus (geez, find yourself a nickname!)
Well, back on topic I guess :hehe:

[Ashara]

Actually, they were having protected sex 6,000 years ago. So it's not as unnatural as you think. Either way, I still don't support gay marriage. Say what you want...even if I was Athiest or Agnostic, I would/will not support it EVER.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Neola

Though I have to agree with A-non-a-mus (geez, find yourself a nickname!)

you can call me 'Anon' or 'Nonners' you know :p

[Neola]

What about Mussy or Nonnie? :P

[A-non-a-mus]

yes, those too whichever your prefer ;) :p

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by ?nathalie?
And how did we end up with talking about sex anyways.
Thought this thread was ment for something else. Actually, it ties into sex because according to some passages of the Bible, homosexual acts are considered sexually immoral.

Also, a question for those who oppose gay marriages... when the bills/propositions/etc. come for making gay marriages legal, do you vote against it, or not vote on them at all?

[A-non-a-mus]

against, for if the bill is passed, what are they going to do? force themselves on the church to marry them... ... basically it'll be a bill on trying to change the christian faith... if it is passed, the church I go to, and any good christian church will still refuse to marry them... against the law or not, these laws cannot change christianity...

[Titunen]

I think love is all that counts. And sex is sex even if the people doing it happen to be both males or females.

And what comes to bible, it always says things that are.. weird. Because gayness has been among people for quite a while now.. it cannot be considered as unnatural. After all, if you believe in god, you think god created everything, including gays. So basically, gays are just as "normal" as everybody else..

[A-non-a-mus]

The longer a sin has been around doesn't make a sin any less of one... murder has been around for a long time too, is that natural? should we accept murder?

God created everything, but he gave 'choice' too, we all get to choose what we want, we all have our own opinions, and can choose to do evil or good, also the choice of view as how we look upon something.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
against, for if the bill is passed, what are they going to do? force themselves on the church to marry them... ... basically it'll be a bill on trying to change the christian faith... if it is passed, the church I go to, and any good christian church will still refuse to marry them... against the law or not, these laws cannot change christianity... Not necessarily. Apparently, in Canada, churches choose whether they want to host gay marriages or not. So it's still a choice for the church to make.

[A-non-a-mus]

yes, true, though that would mean that only few churches would be open for them... and those churches in turn would be hypocritical as they contradict their own faith by allowing a gay marriage to take place within...

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
yes, true, though that would mean that only few churches would be open for them... and those churches in turn would be hypocritical as they contradict their own faith by allowing a gay marriage to take place within... There are plenty of hypocritical churches, though. Many of them already do things that're against the Bible, so having gay marriage wouldn't be the first thing that makes a church hypocritical. Also, if you think a church is being hypocritical, why does it matter to you? If you don't attend it, why is it important? There are far too many denominations of Christianity to "unite as one", so unity shouldn't be a big issue.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
against, for if the bill is passed, what are they going to do? force themselves on the church to marry them... ... basically it'll be a bill on trying to change the christian faith... if it is passed, the church I go to, and any good christian church will still refuse to marry them... against the law or not, these laws cannot change christianity...

I do believe you can get married outside of the church. If the bill is directed at forcing the Church to change it's ways when it comes to marriage, not only is it wrong but unconstitutional as well.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Xinithian
There are plenty of hypocritical churches, though. Many of them already do things that're against the Bible, so having gay marriage wouldn't be the first thing that makes a church hypocritical. Also, if you think a church is being hypocritical, why does it matter to you? If you don't attend it, why is it important? There are far too many denominations of Christianity to "unite as one", so unity shouldn't be a big issue.

yes, I know... I've been to some hypocritical churches... and have seen others... it matters to me because they are churches... they represent (or should) the christian faith... however they don't, and as more and more fall into that hypocrisy, the harder it is for those of us whom are christians... however, in the end they'll have to answer for their own sins, as will we all.


Originally posted by lion_roog
I do believe you can get married outside of the church. If the bill is directed at forcing the Church to change it's ways when it comes to marriage, not only is it wrong but unconstitutional as well.

yes, I know... but then again, the constitution is easily warped and bent over time. Also, who would perform the marriage anyways?... words from a false preacher mean nothing... they might as well perform it themselves

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus

yes, I know... but then again, the constitution is easily warped and bent over time. Also, who would perform the marriage anyways?... words from a false preacher mean nothing... they might as well perform it themselves

Haha...in some states they can perform it themselves..Here is what I found on who can perform marriage ceremonies...

"Usually the state laws provide any recognized member of the clergy (such as a Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Imam, Cantor, Ethical Culture Leader, etc.), or a judge, a court clerk, and justices of the peace have authority to perform a marriage. However in some states even the clergy must be first certified or licensed.

Some states have laws that permit other persons to apply for authority to perform marriage ceremonies. For example, California law permits anyone to apply for permission to become a Deputy Commissioner of Marriages -- the grant of authority is valid for one day -- and thus officiate at the wedding of family or friends on that one day."

http://family-law.freeadvice.com/performmarriageceremony.htm

[A-non-a-mus]

so much for traditions eh?
hm... I wonder why they would need a law then... just get their friends together, perform a marrage then go home without care weither or not the gevernment thinks they are or arn't... (they don't even need a anyone with any sort of marriage license ...) ... I mean they can just go up to some guy/girl in the street and say alright you, marry these two together... ... hm... seems to me like a marriage means absolutly nothing to those whom would go that way... might as well not waste time and energy on it... besides, it won't last anyways...

[Zaya]

for everyone's sakes, being gay is no sin, two gay people getting married is NO sin! Call me the worst Christian around here! LOVE is NO sin, so being gay and being in love is NO sin either! With all this, you're actually saying, that if your religion would tell it is wrong to love people of the opposite sex, you'll just become gay...If you look at it from a more open perspective, we worship and praise God and nobody from this world, for we are all siners in our own ways, besides isn't our religion teaching to love and respect everyone, even the oh so great siners?

P.S.: and yes, do open a sex page, cause I'd really like to know, what enlightment did others get when having it...oh, no, when making looove

again, sorry, for being cinical and a bit rude, but I live in 2006 and am trying to be open-minded and tolerant towards everyone :)

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
so much for traditions eh?
hm... I wonder why they would need a law then... just get their friends together, perform a marrage then go home without care weither or not the gevernment thinks they are or arn't... (they don't even need a anyone with any sort of marriage license ...) ... I mean they can just go up to some guy/girl in the street and say alright you, marry these two together... ... hm... seems to me like a marriage means absolutly nothing to those whom would go that way... might as well not waste time and energy on it... besides, it won't last anyways...

I think you have to be certified or licensed to perform any marriage ceremony. Marriage is very similar to a legal contract/document (it pretty much is one) because then you are bound to your wife/husband legally in some ways...usually financial it seems.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Zaya
for everyone's sakes, being gay is no sin, two gay people getting married is NO sin! Call me the worst Christian around here! LOVE is NO sin, so being gay and being in love is NO sin either! With all this, you're actually saying, that if your religion would tell it is wrong to love people of the opposite sex, you'll just become gay...If you look at it from a more open perspective, we worship and praise God and nobody from this world, for we are all siners in our own ways, besides isn't our religion teaching to love and respect everyone, even the oh so great siners?

love is no sin, and yes, 'love your neighbor as yourself' ... (but you wouldn't have a romantic relationship with yourself now would you?)
Being gay is sexually immoral... and it is said in th bible multiple times...you are a christian right? ... I'm not going to be calling you a bad one or anything, however, it is stated in the bible, 'acceptence of a sin is just as bad as commiting it' ...
Love is no sin, then again, 'gay' and 'love' are not the same context as how you are saying... God is love, God is also without sin, homosexuality/sexual immorality is a sin, therefore cannot be of God or from God, and henceforth is not love.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
hm... I wonder why they would need a law then... just get their friends together, perform a marrage then go home without care weither or not the gevernment thinks they are or arn't... (they don't even need a anyone with any sort of marriage license ...) ... I mean they can just go up to some guy/girl in the street and say alright you, marry these two together... ... hm... seems to me like a marriage means absolutly nothing to those whom would go that way... might as well not waste time and energy on it... besides, it won't last anyways... Well, there are government and legal benefits to married couples, such as community property. If a marriage is not legally declared, and the marriage doesn't turn out, they can't file for divorce because they haven't been married in the first place, so there's no protection for property ownership. There are also other legal benefits with marriage.

[A-non-a-mus]

right, yet they fail to see they can just devide their land/money/property/etc by themselves?... they arn't babies, they don't need the government to babysit them ...

example: they have a cake, they each want part of the cake, they cut the cake in half and each take half... where in that do they need the government to come in and tell them how to cut the cake?....

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
against, for if the bill is passed, what are they going to do? force themselves on the church to marry them... ... basically it'll be a bill on trying to change the christian faith... if it is passed, the church I go to, and any good christian church will still refuse to marry them... against the law or not, these laws cannot change christianity...

The law cannot change Christianity.. nor is it trying to. Church is not the only place you can get married.


they might as well perform it themselves

And they will, if they really want to.


so much for traditions eh?
hm... I wonder why they would need a law then... just get their friends together, perform a marrage then go home without care weither or not the gevernment thinks they are or arn't... (they don't even need a anyone with any sort of marriage license ...) ... I mean they can just go up to some guy/girl in the street and say alright you, marry these two together... ... hm... seems to me like a marriage means absolutly nothing to those whom would go that way... might as well not waste time and energy on it... besides, it won't last anyways...

Okaaaaay, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. If two people are IN LOVE, regardless of gender, it WILL last.

[Dare]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
right, yet they fail to see they can just devide their land/money/property/etc by themselves?... they arn't babies, they don't need the government to babysit them ...

example: they have a cake, they each want part of the cake, they cut the cake in half and each take half... where in that do they need the government to come in and tell them how to cut the cake?....

Speaking from experience...
Never underestimate the ability for adults to turn into babies, particularly in messy divorces where petty arguments become a part of everyday life.

If people (both homosexual and heterosexual) didn't need the goverment to tell them how to divide cake, there'd be no need for state common property laws.

[Nephilim]

Homosexuality is a sin?

"1 Peter 4:8 And above all things be earnest in your love among yourselves, for love covers a multitude of sins."

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Sombolia
Okaaaaay, I have no clue what you're trying to say here. If two people are IN LOVE, regardless of gender, it WILL last.

I was just listing up one thing atop another, oh, this is here, and such and such is happening oh, this is there too, aw the heck with it it's not going to last anyways why bother ... you know... kind of the 'chain of excuses' thing...

and @nephilim: 1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

[Juniper]

Uh, I think people need to realize that Christians do not own marriage. Christianity does not own marriage. Islam does not own marriage, nor does Judaism. Marriage in the terms that're being discussed refers to legal marriage (ie, do you take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband?) and the legal protections therein. A church would not be required to marry a gay couple, though some may opt to because some don't have a problem with it, because that's a religious ceremony. Usually, in America, the mayor, judge, and/or a few other members of the county can legally marry a couple. Such a marriage belongs to the human race, not any religion.

[A-non-a-mus]

exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...

I thow my hands up at it all, really, if you wish to sin, go ahead, no matter what the sin you wish to do is... It isn't my business to "take the twig from the eye of another, before removing the log from my own eye" (located somewhere in the bible... I think 'romans') in other words, until I am without fault I cannot go judging another of their own (in other words 'never' as no one will ever be 'perfect') sure, I can give advice, and take advice from another, but it is up to the other weither to heed or not...
Proverbs 12:15
The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...

I thow my hands up at it all, really, if you wish to sin, go ahead, no matter what the sin you wish to do is... It isn't my business to "take the twig from the eye of another, before removing the log from my own eye" (located somewhere in the bible... I think 'romans')

Now you're starting to annoy me just a tad. I think you could have done without that last paragraph, but the book you're looking for is Matthew.

As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...

Marriage doesn't work like that, anywhere...You can't say "I am now married to so-n-so..." because that is not legally binding. It doesn't work that way. The only difference between getting married in a church and married out of the church, sans the religious part of the ceremony, is the fact that instead of a priest, rabbi, etc (who may be required to be certified depending on where you live) you are married by a certified or licensed public official.

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
exactly, marriage if put in christianity's view you'd need a church and priest, however, if not then you need absolutly no reason to ever need anyone to marry someone to the other... and therefore would need no bill passed anyways... afterall, you can just say, 'I am now married to so-n-so or even some object. It's kind of why it was put in place with the church in the first place, to prevent chaos... but hey, there's no longer any qualification, if you don't believe a certain way, why follow any of the rules right? ...

Just because you're married outside of church doesn't mean that the marriage is pointless, or any less meaningful than if you were married in a church.. and no, you can't just say "Hey let's be married!", you do need someone to preform the marriage, whether it's a priest or a judge or whoever. The church does not own marriage.. when was marriage "put in the place with the church"?

And you're right on the last point. If I'm not a Christian- and I'm not- why should I be expected to follow the rules of Christiananity? Only I get the feeling with your statement, you were being sarcastic..

[A-non-a-mus]

Now you're starting to annoy me just a tad. I think you could have done without that last paragraph, but the book you're looking for is Matthew.

As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.

yes, I know, and I don't mean to annoy, I just mean to say, it isn't my business to try to change anything or force anything upon another, I guess the phrase 'wash my hand of the subject' would have been more fitting to say... (although they mean the same)

in the same sense no one can expect to win a race without first starting.


Marriage doesn't work like that, anywhere...You can't say "I am now married to so-n-so..." because that is not legally binding. It doesn't work that way. The only difference between getting married in a church and married out of the church, sans the religious part of the ceremony, is the fact that instead of a priest, rabbi, etc (who may be required to be certified depending on where you live) you are married by a certified or licensed public official.

Right, but you have to believe something is binding for it to be so... I personally think 'Love'/'marriage'/etc are something extremely speacial that only be obtained through constant and never ending devotion to the other.


Originally posted by Sombolia
Just because you're married outside of church doesn't mean that the marriage is pointless, or any less meaningful than if you were married in a church.. and no, you can't just say "Hey let's be married!", you do need someone to preform the marriage, whether it's a priest or a judge or whoever. The church does not own marriage.. when was marriage "put in the place with the church"?

And you're right on the last point. If I'm not a Christian- and I'm not- why should I be expected to follow the rules of Christiananity? Only I get the feeling with your statement, you were being sarcastic..

yes, but still there is belief in it... otherwise there'd be no need for a person to be there to perform the marriage...
also, the marriage thing was put into place with the church in the old testament in the book of leviticus

also, I was semi sarcastic, semi not... basically, why would you need a church anyways? if you don't believe in anything the church teaches.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus

Right, but you have to believe something is binding for it to be so... I personally think 'Love'/'marriage'/etc are something extremely speacial that only be obtained through constant and never ending devotion to the other.

Which has nothing to do directly with Christianity as constant and never ending devotion is a universal attribute, not one that is specific with Christianity or any other religion.

And belief can only take you so far in the legal world...if you marry someone and choose not to believe in the sanctity of that marriage...it's still a legal contract which you must abide by (or face the consequences of you actions) no matter what you believe.

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
also, I was semi sarcastic, semi not... basically, why would you need a church anyways? if you don't believe in anything the church teaches.

You don't need a church, that's the point.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus

until I am without fault I cannot go judging another of their own (in other words 'never' as no one will ever be 'perfect') sure, I can give advice, and take advice from another, but it is up to the other weither to heed or not...

that's good advice...the only problem with advice is that it's not guaranteed to be good and may become a tool to mislead.

Here's some good advice...:cheese:

Matthew 7:1-2

"Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you"

[lionloversam]

^ Very good advice roog. I always wondered where that verse was found.

[Jammet]

I know plenty of people in male-male relationships. I'm not the first to say it but:

If you are a man and you believe that being gay is a lifestyle choice, try making that choice. For 5 minutes. Be attracted to guys for 5 minutes.

Biologically speaking being or becoming gay is normal. Surely a rare thing to happen. Perhaps a positively silly accident in nature's choice, but still essentially a product of nature. It is in conflict with the numbers of the norm, but that's about it.
Moral, beliefs, and ethics just don't apply.

Using the bible as your tool of trade if you're the bible-thumping type you can practically prove or rebute anything (in your interest) whatsoever by quoting out of it.

But while I do respect your beliefs and religion, you will need to come up with insightful arguments of your own.

I also have the same respect for anyone who's wants to have sex 'just because'. If it's their idea of fun, so be it, regardless of gender.

I'd mew Yes - to gay / lesbian / whatever marriage. Luckily it is legal in many countries already.

And now I should actually participate more on this board, I'm rarely if ever around. =^_^= But I'll go play in another thread. Seeya!

[Ashara]

My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

Your post sounds like one big logical fallicy to me...:D

[Jammet]

Originally posted by Ashara
You aren't born gay.

Um, did you read what I wrote 5 minutes earlier?

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

no you did not :@

What makes a person straight? You werent born straight, You were born knowing NOTHING of the world, your PARENTS, and TEACHERS taught you everythign you needed to know how to survive...

And sorry to say, but that was VERY rude..

*When I say your, I do not mean you Ashara, I mean every human being on the world.

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

You don't choose to be gay; you're right- why would you? You wouldn't. It just happens.

"I think I've always been bisexual. I mean, it's something that I've always been interested in. I think everybody kind of fantasizes about the same sex. I think people are born bisexual, and it's just that our parents and society kind of veer us off into this feeling of 'Oh, I can't.' They say it's taboo. It's ingrained in our heads that it's bad, when it's not bad at all. It's a very beautiful thing."

[lionloversam]

I am unsure about the possibility of being born gay. I would need to see some documentation on that fact. As for me...... *stops in mid sentence*

[Jammet]

Just about everyone is bisexual to some degree. Really everyone. And you are born with the scale tipped one way or another. From the getgo, you either start out being bisexual, straight or gay. As everyone else.

There are many more people straight and "normal" of course. I already wrote that the scale being tipped the other way is a more rare thing to happen.

Your life experiences helps to add up to how it turns out for you. But you will never - at no point in your life - actively decide to just ... stop being gay, stop being straight, stop being bisexual. It's not a choice thing. It's natural.

[lionloversam]

One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:

[Dare]

Originally posted by lionloversam
One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:

That's kind of a silly argument, considering how HIV/AIDS doesn't discriminate. O_o

[lionloversam]

That is a good point, wicked. I guess the argurment behind that statement is that individuals leading alternitive lifestyles are more likely to catch the illness. I am really confusing myself...

[Jammet]

Chances of catching the Aids and other illnesses are most likely on you when you are:

Being poor (as in - not having the money to afford protection and/or education required for the following steps).

Being undereducated as in:

1. Not checking with a doctor for the illness on yourself at the right time (meaning prior to having sex with anyone).

2. Not asking your partner if they have seen a doctor for check-up, either, because you want to be nice and it's a sensitive topic.

3. Having sex with no protection (regardless).

And lastly, though I don't have statistics or something to aid the statement, I mean that people who know their way around this topic (those "life-stylers") are are probably less likely to be infected.

[Stormfury]

[ http://www.avert.org/historyi.htm .] Maybe that'll help.

@Jammet: I do agree, there are homosexual tendencies within us .

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by lionloversam
One arguement I have heard is: "If it is natural, then way do same-sex partners catch illnesses such as AIDS?" Can't remember where... :confused:

Hahahaha.

Heterosexual partners can get AIDS, too.

[Sadiki]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

It's actually not your choise what you find attractive, which makes homosexual people like the same sex as they are more then the opposite. there is also prove that no one is complealy streight or fully gay, just finding same or opposite sex more attractive then the other. I can honestly say I have never feel attraction the same sex then I am, yet I can't say either that could never happen, but sinse I'm in love and in relationship I strongly doubt it as long as it last.
so actually gay people have born that way. And they have as many reason to find same sex attractive as streight people have opposite sex. Not giving gay people right to get married is kind of racism even, sinse everyone should have a right to search for happiness which marriage gives for some people. who are we to take away that happiness? I do say no one.

[HasiraKali]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

This post was reported to me. As far as I can tell, you're not breaking any board rules, but I wanted you to know that some members are finding your post offensive. I know this is your opinion and you have every right to it but I do find that last bit a tad bit rude and rudeness just isn't cool. :eww:

Thank you.

And now back to your regularly scheduled debate. :evilgrin:

[nathalie]

Originally posted by pntbll248
As for marriage, you don't need to follow the christian religion to have reason to marry. Believe it or not, non-christians, and non-religious people want to marry just as much as everyone else. Why? Because it's a binding union between two people to make them one. When you marry someone, that's (usually) the person you plan on living with for the rest of your life; you don't need to be religious to want that.

I totally agree with this.
And have nothing more to add eather, hehe.

[Zaya]

Agreeing with pntbll248, don't wanna fight, reading some of your so-called christian s... makes me wanna explode, so hurray to everyone, gay, non gay, christian, non christian, as long as you don't try to force someone into believeing what you do - so tell me, has a gay person ever forced anyone into being gay? Never happened to me...Has a religious person ever tried to force me into being as religious as he or she was - oh yes, too many times...

[Sharifu]

Originally posted by Ashara
You aren't born gay.

Whoa, how can you know that? I'm tired of people saying that like it's a fact. I want people with your opinion to answer my questions I've already asked before:


Originally posted by Sharifu
Why would you choose to be gay? Homosexuals have a hard enough time being excepted, and are looked down upon. If you had the choice, why would you choose that? Doesn't that make sense?

But yet, people who think like you on this issue never have anything to say about it.

[Zaya]

Since apparently everyone was born straight here...how come not everyone was born with the same amount of tolerance...

And agreeing with Sharifu, why do you just oversee some posts that make a good point instead of answering, come, let us make a debate...

Posted by A-non-a-mus:
"love is no sin, and yes, 'love your neighbor as yourself' ... (but you wouldn't have a romantic relationship with yourself now would you?)
Being gay is sexually immoral... and it is said in th bible multiple times...you are a christian right? ... I'm not going to be calling you a bad one or anything, however, it is stated in the bible, 'acceptence of a sin is just as bad as commiting it' ...
Love is no sin, then again, 'gay' and 'love' are not the same context as how you are saying... God is love, God is also without sin, homosexuality/sexual immorality is a sin, therefore cannot be of God or from God, and henceforth is not love."

Why is being gay sexually immoral - cause the Bibel says so?!?!?! Ok, no comment on that one anymore - seems like our own head doesn't stand there for thinking but for folowing rules.

Gay people are called that way cause they either like or love people of the same gender...so...why can't we use gay and love together? :browlift:

Why, who told you homosexuality is a sin? Did God step down from his kingdom and tell you that?

Btw, to the sex thing, goes to those who think it's only that special moment of love that is "used" for reproduction (I'm sorry but it just won't leave me alone); Have you ever experienced it at all?

[Dyani]

Originally posted by Zaya
Agreeing with pntbll248, don't wanna fight, reading some of your so-called christian s... makes me wanna explode, so hurray to everyone, gay, non gay, christian, non christian, as long as you don't try to force someone into believeing what you do - so tell me, has a gay person ever forced anyone into being gay? Never happened to me...Has a religious person ever tried to force me into being as religious as he or she was - oh yes, too many times...

So very true hun. I have never experinced a gay person trying to force me into being bi or lesbian, whereas three friends so far ahve tried to force religion ionto me. Although most of the time they are only thinking of me, they want me to share in their eternal glory in Heaven too. Which is really touching, but.. I'm too much of a scientist and athetist. Go Big Bang!

Anywho back on topic - people don't choose to be gay. To them its a natural transition from feeling nothing apart from friendship to another person, to feeling attraction. Its as natural as straight people sudenly feeling attraction to the opposite sex.
For myself, I am straight but sometimes find myself heavily attracted to females. It just happens and I aint fighting Nature when Nature made me the way I am :p
People can't be forced to become straight just because being gay is a *taboo*. So therefore, gay people have the right to marry their gay partners just the same as straight people.
I get sick and tired of people who are against gays. Its just as bad as discrimminating against females, black people or Asian people. If we are going to succeed in being broad-minded, perhaps we should allow other humans, that are only different from us by sexuality, to marry their chosen partners.

End of rant
:D

[Only-now]

The last thing I am going to say...and this has been studied scientifically etc:

1) Gay marriage will ruin the traditional family
2) The institution of marriage as a union will be destroyed as well

I dont know if many of you know, but it IS a known fact that gay couples and people are MUCH more sexually permiscous than straight couples. In fact, thousands of studies have shown that gay people have a VERY high amount of sexual partners in their lifetimes...to the extent of even hundreds. Obviously, you have to think about when this combines with what marriage is supposed to be...a union for life. There would be a HUGE amount of divorce because of this fact...and so it would ruin what marriage is supposed to mean.

3) Coutries that have already legalized it have shown that it DOES NOT WORK. There are people getting married to multiple people..one female one male etc...or getting married for a very short time much more often. Allowing this will lead to even more outrageous demands..in many areas..that will further destroy marriage.

4) The gay "rights" community and others..because this is what activists do, has been known to always increase the demands after one is reached. So, anyone can expect to see MORE demands after marriage is reached.

I personally looked this up..because I was looking for support for my side. I know that anyone who opposes this is outnumbered here..and it is natural to search for support...but deep down..and because I trust my parents..who are older then I and wiser...I feel that it would result in consequences that we would not want to experience...and that people who support it are not looking towards at this moment.

They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case. It isn't about recieving the rights that marriage provides..but more that they want to purposely achieve this union because they want society to recognize them as normal. It is NOT about their relationship...nor religion..just as it isn't when two straight people get married. They want to force society to recognize their relationship as normal..and the cold fact is that it ISN'T normal..and it ISN'T natural.

~Kiva

[Stormfury]

Originally posted by Sharifu
Whoa, how can you know that? I'm tired of people saying that like it's a fact. I want people with your opinion to answer my questions I've already asked before:

There are critique of the etiological basis of people that are born with same-sex orientation. A big portion relates to mapped chromosomes and heredity. So people have a good chance of being born gay as it were.

[Sombolia]

Okay, I'm not even touching "points" #1 and #2.


3) Coutries that have already legalized it have shown that it DOES NOT WORK. There are people getting married to multiple people..one female one male etc...or getting married for a very short time much more often. Allowing this will lead to even more outrageous demands..in many areas..that will further destroy marriage.

Do you honestly think the US government isn't going to notice if people marry multiple people? As for gays having short marriages.. There are just as many straight couples getting married for ridiculously short amounts of time here.


4) The gay "rights" community and others..because this is what activists do, has been known to always increase the demands after one is reached. So, anyone can expect to see MORE demands after marriage is reached.

Okay, obviously I can't speak for everyone, but everyone I know wants equality, not special treatment. What more demands could they ask for?


They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case. It isn't about recieving the rights that marriage provides..but more that they want to purposely achieve this union because they want society to recognize them as normal. It is NOT about their relationship...nor religion..just as it isn't when two straight people get married. They want to force society to recognize their relationship as normal..and the cold fact is that it ISN'T normal..and it ISN'T natural.

lolz. Are you saying that gays are treated fairly? Because, hey, they're not. Is it wrong to want be looked upon as "normal" by society, really? Or would you really rather be discriminated against?

You say that it isn't natural, or normal.. but that's an opinion, not a "cold fact". That is something religion says, and you can't prove that the bible is true or that God exists; right now it's just something you believe in.

[Zaya]

If you go trough history...a similar thing happened with the first interracial marriages...do you feel that being with a person of a different race is bad? No? Well, some time ago, they said it will destroy the world...but did it?

As for the recognition of homosexual people...doesn't everyone want to be recognized, to be respected? And I think, everyone deserves it.

“They only care about the fact that gay people SEEM to be treated unfairly, when that is not the case.”

Hmmmm....that is not the case? Well, you seem to be treating them unfairly since you describe them as NOT normal.

What is normal? What is natural? We each have our own definition of it, some guided by religion, other by their own good judgement :)

[nathalie]

About what's normal and what is ...

I don't even think it's normal to even judge someone on what they are, instead of who they are.

"Hey, gay people might be / are fun too ..."

So I've always wondered, that if you met someone, who you can really get along with, and after a year or so, he tells you "I'm gay", would you just drop him as a friend?

[Jammet]

Hello once more.

I don't even really know where to begin. Let's just say that you're fully correct in some points to make, and totally wrong on the conclusions to come to.

I took the liberty to correct some mistakes in your post above and marked them in bold. I also added some bits and pieces to make it a little more obvious that this is meant to be taken as advice to:


Please don't make these kinds of ludicrous assumptions about what peoples intentions are. Those activists stand for equality.
Not put in lots of worthless big numbers (they are just that without any kind of further reference).
Remember that you cannot fully trust statistics unless they are your own (take everything with a grain of salt and look at where it's from, who paid for it or who conducted it for what reasion with or without a predetermined mindset).
Please take a little step back from "We want" "We will" "We must" and make them "I'd think" "I'd say" "I'd do", and all it's many variations thereof instead.



But don't take this the wrong way. I know it is insanely rude of me as well to misquote you like this. Instead I could also simply have summed your posting up as "can't be taken seriously", but then it wouldn't be a discussion anymore.

As a piece of opinion I respect your post, assuming you're talking about yourself and maybe your family. But as the facts sheet you made it out to be, and with the personal assumptions you claim it cannot be taken seriously. At all. If I would take it seriously it'd be simply put - an insult.

So, please don't take the following as an insult. I'll discuss it some more in private messages with you if you like, and I apologize if this below is too inappropriate. You tell me to remove it, I'll remove it at once. (Removed)

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Zaya
And agreeing with Sharifu, why do you just oversee some posts that make a good point instead of answering, come, let us make a debate...

The whole 'born gay' or 'not born gay' thing... it's been widespread... and has been answered many times differently by many different people...
When we are born, we are born into sin... yet, we are also born with innosence, for you can't say a baby stole something or convict them of theft...
As we grow we 'develop' things, especially during certain stages in life. We all will have our own unique way of seeing the world. Sometimes, it's confusing, othertimes it's clear it always seems hopeless at some point or other. Especially the later highschool years, to mid twenties... I mean, what's on their minds? Guys begin to see girls differently, as certain changes occur... it's all new to them and confusing... They somehow feel the need to be with another... then look at how many there are out there, how can I make a right choise, I'll never find one that's right for me, if there'sonlyone, howcantheyevenbeinthisplace? Things come and go at great speeds, some ask girls out, others don't. Most times, at that early an age the girl is not going to be the right one for them, a poor choise is made, they just can't connect... Some give up, it's hopeless... how can you find one in a group of billions? ... They throw in the towel early... wait... they do get along with their friends just fine don't they? ... Why do they find it so easy to get along with other guys, yet they find girls so confusing? ... thus they see 'oh, I'm gay then' ... when in fact it's neither a choise, nor are they born with it, rather it is a state of mind developed when they were going through puberty. so there, question answered, NO ONE is born gay, and also it is NOT a choice they make... Like a seed planted in the mind, the origin of this seed is Satan, and as we grow older, this seed will take root, causing a strong grasp of how we think ever after.

if you need further proof that it isn't there in the beginning, then why is it that straight boys stay away from girls? (ew, a girl/boy, run! ... you know the stage I'm talking about right?) nor do young kids parade aroung saying 'I'm going to be gay' either, afterall, young kids know nothing of the later stages in their lives.


Originally posted by Zaya
Why is being gay sexually immoral - cause the Bibel says so?!?!?! Ok, no comment on that one anymore - seems like our own head doesn't stand there for thinking but for folowing rules.

you speak of me not thinking yet you could be said the same to... rather you prefer to speak down to others, and keep yourself on high with no instances of what you say or why you say what you say... so tell me, why do you believe that being gay is right? ... what ressons, lessons have you for your support? answer me those two questions to get a debate going rather than a hurl insult contest... I tend to back my words with the reason why I see it that way... you have just said your thoughts without leaving why you come to such a conclution... For I say, in your post here, all you are doing, rather than 'debating' is resorting to you saying to me 'you don't see my point therefore you are stupid.' as that's how it comes across to me as.


Originally posted by Zaya
Gay people are called that way cause they either like or love people of the same gender...so...why can't we use gay and love together? :browlift:

well, can we mix God and Satan?...
2 Corinthians 6:15
What harmony is there between Christ and Belial (the devil)?
is anyone perfect?... ... the answer to these all are 'No' or 'none' ... now, If God is Perfect, and without sin, can sin come from him? ...
2 Corinthians 6:14
For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
God is love ... how can 'love' be put together with homosexuality(sin)

Satan would love to confuse you, do not trust Satan though, he hates all, and his path leads to hell.


Originally posted by Zaya
Why, who told you homosexuality is a sin? Did God step down from his kingdom and tell you that?

basically, yes, God did step out of his kingdom to tell us. As he spoke to moses, and he came down as Jesus too...

Leviticus 18:22: 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'

also the one I posted before:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


Originally posted by Zaya
Btw, to the sex thing, goes to those who think it's only that special moment of love that is "used" for reproduction (I'm sorry but it just won't leave me alone); Have you ever experienced it at all?

Have you've ever expirienced 'true love' before?
I'm not saying that 'sex' is only used for reproduction, for it is also a strong show of passion and love felt for the other, (except when it comes to those who abuse it)

[Zaya]

I will try to be short, first of all I did not got directly on to you or tried to offend you, but I am sorry if it sounded that way. I respect everyone's oppinions and beliefs and did not try to convince you into believing something you don't. I was only trying to make the point by letting you kow, that different people, have different views on what sin is, and for some people being gay isn't a sin. End of it...

For me, having nothing against gay people, wasn't a conclusion, it is what i feel, I have nothing but my heart and my intellect to back it up, because I do not believe accepting people as they are has anything to do with statistics, books, etc. It's what's inside you. :)

as to physical relationship again;...if you knew what I went through for my true love, you would know, asking me something like that is an insult :) So I appologize if I insulted you by questioning your experiences aswell.

[Juniper]

I hate to butt in again, but I think we need to realize that this issue needs treated with compassion and dignity for both sides. A lot of members here, in this very thread, are of an alternate sexual orientation, and saying "They" are "Disgusting", "Sinful [and/or] Wrong", etc... is disrespectful. What this debate has turned into is a debate about homosexual people; we are now talking about living, breathing people. People that are here, right now.

The vast majority of people want to be normal and accepted by their peers, and science and/or philosophy has demonstrated at the very least that homosexuality is not something that developes, or goes away, overnight. The scientific community, religious biases aside, generally believes that a person has at least some part of their sexual orientation decided before birth, and more likely than not almost completely decided before puberty, based on many factors. A person's sexual orientation is a core part of their being, and is much more than just sex; it makes up part of who they are, how they think, and what they experience. More importantly, a homosexual person*, as opposed to a person that has had a homosexual experience, can vouch that such an orientation is not a choice. In other words, this isn't something that going to be argued out of someone.

Because sexuality is a core part of a person; because most homosexual people, as well as many scientific studies, vouch for not choosing their orientation; and because it is not something that just comes and goes overnight; this is not something to be treated with such disrespect as I've seen. Likewise, a person's religion need not be stepped on in such a way, as such a thing is also a core part of a person.


*During puberty, a child may have fantasies or, rarely, even experiences about/with another person of the same sex. This is considered by psychologists to be a normal part of puberty that some, or many, people experience that most likely serves the role to allow the person to become fully aware of their own body. This does not make the person homosexual, as such fantasies/experiences only deal with sexual exploration and not such things as physical attraction (usually), emotional attrachment, relationship, etc...





As for myself, well, I really don't care that someone thinks I'm "Wrong", as long as they don't try to harm me or my legal rights. If that's what your religion says, then follow your religion and leave me to mine; I cannot ask you to change your religion any more than you can ask me to change my sexual orientation, as long as you don't try to hurt me or my rights as a human being, or American. The homosexuality issue goes farther than marriage though, into things that shouldn't even be debated: Health care, military service, discrimination, adoption, hospital visitation rights, and immigration. The right to be healthy, the right to protect one's country and loved ones (though I am personally opposed to war), the right to be treated with equality, the right to raise a child, the right to see one's dying lover, and the right to build a better life in a better land. These are not rights of any one country, but of humanity itself. These are rights being debated, and gradually denied, or rarely, protected. I've always figured a human being is a human being, an American is an American, and that those two things should come first. But as we stand, that is not the case in society today. A homosexual human is no longer human, he or she is sub-human. A homosexual American is no longer American, he or she is second class. I don't think anyone here can blame a person for trying to better their condition in society.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

Haha, yes, we all make that choice at some point in our lives. It's like the way I woke up one day and thought "I'm going to find white people more sexually attractive than blacks, but damn, Asian women are hot."

Congratulations. You've succeeded in making yourself look foolish. Also, it's wonderful, all the evidence you're using to back up your statement. Bravo.

How old are you? Are you experienced in sex? Because I don't know about you, but I don't look at my boyfriend and make a conscious decision to be sexually attracted to him when I feel like it. It's not something that we as humans have some sort of control over.

I'm also tired of debating the religious side of this. I will openly admit I am against religion (thought not as far as to be anti-religious) so anything to do with your deities means... nothing to me, other than the odd bit of amusement. I'd like to discuss it with a person, not a scripture.

[Tiikeri]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>
XD...Well done, you are now officially a loser, your medal is in the post.

Seriously, just read what you said. Ok so you're not born gay, but you're also not born straight, you are born without a sexual orientation, giving you the chance to choose your own later in life.

Also, your attitude towards homosexuality annoys me. I'm a bisexual and I'm quite open about that, I have absolutely nothing against gays whatsoever, in fact quite a few of my friends are gay/bi.

And looking at your post, who is more immature? The person for deciding to go against conformity and choose their own path in life, or you for slating that person for it? I know who I think is the most immature, and it aint the person who chose his own way of life.

[Monai]

Originally posted by Ashara
My question is why would you be gay? "I'm going to be gay today!" What the heck? You aren't born gay. It's some immature kid that decided he wanted to be different thousands of years ago. Well, look what ya started, buddy! >_>

Yes, a few million people just woke up one morning, decided to have cereal for breakfast, go to the gym, oh, and live out their lives in one of the most discriminated-against groups in the world today.

Yeah. ?_?

What is it with this whole 'you're born straight, you choose to be gay' thing that homophobic people use to justify their opinion? You don't choose to be gay. I could say that you chose to be straight, the fact is you probably didn't. The fact is, you were probably straight the minute you were born, just like gay people were gay the minute they were born. If you're straight, you've always been straight. If you're gay, you've always been gay. You just won't have known it all your life. You don't just wake up and decide it one morning.

[Jammet]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
... [snip] ... Guys begin to see girls differently, as certain changes occur... it's all new to them and confusing... They somehow feel the need to be with another... [snip]

Hello there =).

This works quite same way with gay people.

As it written before, you are being born tipped in this way or another. Unnoticed by many; girls and boys begin to see people of the same sex quite differently as they grow up. In their first experience. And their second, third, and forth, too. When you become older your influence on these feelings slowly fades away and it will be hard for you to even attempt feeling any different about how much you're attracted to males or females. You have very little say in that in the end.

Due to 'reasoning' not too far in style and theme from what was laid out by a few people in this thread who believe that being gay as an unnatural lifestyle choice, these girls and boys are going through great hardships. For no reason other than "You're different."

Been there, done that.

[A-non-a-mus]

ok... I know what Ashara said was wrong, but please don't resort to throwing insult after insult to him/her ... that's equaly immature as the post it's self... maturity is the knowledge of what's appropreate to show and not show...

example, it is ok to inform politly: 'you are in the wrong for saying that.'
ist is not ok to inform: 'how dare you put that, you pigion-footed-eggeater!' ... see what I mean? besides, you'd gain more respect in the eyes of another by keeping from hurling an insult...

Proverbs 29:11
A fool gives full vent to his anger, but a wise man keeps himself under control.


Originally posted by Zaya
as to physical relationship again;...if you knew what I went through for my true love, you would know, asking me something like that is an insult

I didn't mean that as an insult, if you believe you've found true love, then that's great to hear...
To test your surity, though, at a question, what's the absolute first thing that came to mind? ... a strong, clear answer, or a small amount of unsurity? To have expirienced in true love, always yeilds a strong and clear answer. To go so far as to be insulted by such a question, is strong enough an answer... I didn't mean to insult and/or overstep myself in anyway... because I have, I would like to apologise for that... it wasn't my intention.


Originally posted by pntbll248
I hate to butt in again, but I think we need to realize that this issue needs treated with compassion and dignity for both sides. A lot of members here, in this very thread, are of an alternate sexual orientation, and saying "They" are "Disgusting", "Sinful [and/or] Wrong", etc... is disrespectful. What this debate has turned into is a debate about homosexual people; we are now talking about living, breathing people. People that are here, right now.

I am only talking from a christian standpoint in which the bible says the act of homosexuality is a sin... It is not the people, nor are they to blame... I'm not going to turn from my christian standpoint either, however, that doesn't mean I think homosexuals are any less human than anyone else... if that's what you get out of what I've been explaining, I guess I've failed at showing my point... I will openly say I'm not very good with my words... and I don't mean to degrade anyone, or anyone's belief...
On the sub-human part... I have many more reasons to be labeled 'sub-human' than anyone homosexual... I can't even funtion normally, and if I've come across as saying anything to that effect (without intending to) then feel free to call me worse...


Originally posted by Jammet
Hello there =).

This works quite same way with gay people.

As it written before, you are being born tipped in this way or another. Unnoticed by many; girls and boys begin to see people of the same sex quite differently as they grow up. In their first experience. And their second, third, and forth, too. When you become older your influence on these feelings slowly fades away and it will be hard for you to even attempt feeling any different about how much you're attracted to males or females. You have very little say in that in the end.

I wrote that from the view of BOTH hetero and homosexual...

you're born neither gay nor straight, was what I was saying for I have yet to meet a five year-old gay peron nor a five year old straight, they just arn't in that stage of life yet... the scale is empty and balanced until that stage occurs, it is then that the scale tips one way or the other.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus



I am only talking from a christian standpoint in which the bible says the act of homosexuality is a sin... It is not the people, nor are they to blame... I'm not going to turn from my christian standpoint either, however, that doesn't mean I think homosexuals are any less human than anyone else... if that's what you get out of what I've been explaining, I guess I've failed at showing my point... I will openly say I'm not very good with my words... and I don't mean to degrade anyone, or anyone's belief...
On the sub-human part... I have many more reasons to be labeled 'sub-human' than anyone homosexual... I can't even funtion normally, and if I've come across as saying anything to that effect (without intending to) then feel free to call me worse...


Actually, I wasn't really referring to you or your comments. However, I am Christian and bisexual, and I have good reason to believe that the bible does not condemn all forms of homosexual activity based on the very translations and words used within the books of the bible, as well as other reasons. I don't really feel like getting into that here, though.

[Only-now]

One, I want to say that all the reasons I come to are not because I am religious. I am NOT a christian...but marriage has a religious basis..so there is no way to get around those points.

I never said that gay people were not NORMAL people. They can be perfectly normal..but their sexuality isn't. It doesn't matter how much they want it to be. The majority of the people in the world are straight for a reason...because that is the way NATURE (notice I didn't say GOD) intended it to be. Since that is what the majority of the people are in this world..it is natural to also develop laws, rituals, and actions that suit them. That is why marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman...as well as the fact that the heterosexual relationship results in new birth. Heterosexual people want the other (and majority) heterosexual people to recognize their bond, and relationship...but since gays are NOT the majority...we do not change our traditions and laws for them.

I cannot honestly say that I know anything...but I do believe that if that occurs, it will cause problems within society.

Also, it doesn't matter if a government knows about degradations against marriage, because allowing gays to do so would start the ball rolling. I mean honestly...after this is given..what is to stop people from saying that "love" plays a role in marrying more than one person? I mean, you CAN love more than one person right? It HAS happened before..so I suppose those people...who can't help their feelings should be allowed marriage in the respect too? What about furry people..who love an animal...should they be allowed to marry it as well? How far will it go?

I don't know what will happen if this is implemented, but I have my own FEELINGS that it will have a negative effect for the MAJORITY of society.

PLEASE don't say that the marriage issue is for "equality". May I mention again, that marriage is NOT a right..it is a privelage..and those can be taken away and even not given to certain people for certain reasons.

Someone mentioned interracial relationships right? Well, those don't destroy a family image...there is still a father, a mother, children that can be born. NEVER try and compare slavery, or the way we treated blacks to how we treat gays. It isn't even CLOSE to as bad. There are no LAWS against gays, how they act, or what they are allowed to do. That even goes for the marriage thing. They aren't challenging a law..they are challenging a tradition..that MANY people have been through...support for religious reasons..and that believe it or not..our fore fathers wouldnt have supported as far as I can tell.

I got your PM Jammet..but to be honest...if you know that misquoting me is wrong...then please don't do it. I meant what I said..the WAY I said it. Thanks.

Like I said before..I have heard this all before...and honestly at the moment it isn't even that important. Since I am losing interest in this..plus those reasons I mentioned before....I think I shall take my "vow of silence" even if something interests me..lol. I don't intend to change people's minds really...but to be honest it is MUCH easier to understand your side, than it is for you to understand mine. Anyways, enjoy the "debate"....and remember that in the end this conversation doesn't matter (as a reminder for people not to get too upset).

Here is a quote from something I just read on this issue...he used an example of traffic lights if you are wondering...but it is long, and I don't want to post about it anymore..since this is my last one..lol. I will post the link in case you want to read more. Here though:

"It was only three decades ago when the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from their respective lists of mental disorders. It sounds awfully utopian to believe that in the span of a generation a few judges, under popular pressure, can convince the rest of society to accept an unprecedentedly radical revision of an institution that existed millennia before traffic lights, and upon which far more depends."

Link: http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg200408200923.asp

~Kiva

[Jammet]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I wrote that from the view of BOTH hetero and homosexual...

Since there wasn't a clear reference other than "we" about males actually finding other males attractive or girls finding other girls attractive I've put it in there in the reply.


Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
you're born neither gay nor straight, was what I was saying for I have yet to meet a five year-old gay peron nor a five year old straight, they just arn't in that stage of life yet... the scale is empty and balanced until that stage occurs, it is then that the scale tips one way or the other.

You wish to meet with a 5 year old gay? Meet the crowds. Go out on the street. But you're right in that you cannot ask them about this yet.

It is fine by me if you'd even reject 'the scale' entirely, so let's assume for the sake of the argument that you are right about this for current paragraph and make one thing very clear: If it all - being gay - actually was a matter of choice and free will - nothing would change. Gay people would still be gay. And not just gay people would still stand up for everyones rights and the equality of homosexuals on the exact same terms as before.

No human is exactly like another. We look, think, act and feel different. There are mechanisms at work within us that determine what we like to eat, smell, feel, down all the way to the very basics of 'who we like' or 'what we like most in someone else'. Including but not limited guys loving other guys as a direct result. At first just liking someone for something an awful lot. The smell perhaps. This defines who whe are. We cannot change very much of what or who we are, what're becoming. We can try to learn towards decisions to make as we a tad bit smarter than animals. But most of what we are is still predetermined by needs and drives.


Originally posted by Only-now
if you know that misquoting me is wrong...then please don't do it. I meant what I said..the WAY I said it. Thanks.

It was an attempt to drive a point home. Wasn't sensible at all and definitely not the right way, and I'm sorry. If you meant everything as it still stands there though I'd like again to point out that some of this felt like an insult to me. But I won't go back to that and I cut the misquoted section out now.


Originally posted by Only-now
PLEASE don't say that the marriage issue is for "equality". May I mention again, that marriage is NOT a right..it is a privelage..and those can be taken away and even not given to certain people for certain reasons.

That is like asking everyone to please stop discussing valid arguments regardless if you're wrong or not the majority. Please don't take anything going on here personally in any way, and don't take it so much to heart. I'll probably stop discussing this soon anyway as it seems we're going in circles.

"Marriage" doesn't go hand in hand with religion at all, for marriage is sure to date back to when the first humans lived together in something like a pack or a tribe. As such it's everyone's right, perfectly so. If you're thinking gay people want to get married "under God" that's probably wrong. Well there seem to be some that would want to, and they probably have a good reason to. But I wouldn't understand so if I ever meet one of those, I'll ask' em.

Anyway this is it for me. Maybe I'll stop here. I see the same names repeating over and over and I can see a good deal of what I just wrote is going to put through the "No your not Yes I am No your not" routine and I don't want to waste my energy on this. I've got more to worry about.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by Only-now
Someone mentioned interracial relationships right? Well, those don't destroy a family image...there is still a father, a mother, children that can be born. NEVER try and compare slavery, or the way we treated blacks to how we treat gays. It isn't even CLOSE to as bad. There are no LAWS against gays, how they act, or what they are allowed to do.

The hell there aren't. Sorry, but that made you sound like you suffer from rectal-cranial inversion. A decade ago, people were being thrown in prison for violating sodomy laws in the US (which, by the way, existed up until about four years ago). In some countries today, you can lined up against a wall and shot for being homosexual. Less extreme, though equally offensive, laws prohibit gay people from military service, discrimination protection, and hate crime protection, to name a few. Now I don't know about you, but that sounds like "LAWS against gays, how they act, or what they are allowed to do". What do you define as bad treatment? Discrimination? Imprisonment? Death? Those sound pretty bad to me.

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Only-now
What about furry people..who love an animal...should they be allowed to marry it as well?


Marrying an animal is much different from marrying a person. A marriage is an agreement between two people.. tell me, how do you ask an animal to marry you? How do you know it's response? Comparing homosexual marriages to human/animal marriages is insane.

[lionloversam]

Anyway furries don't actually have those kinds of 'relations' with animals.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Only-now
What about furry people..who love an animal...should they be allowed to marry it as well? How far will it go? ~Kiva I DEFINETLY think they should be able to. Can you imagine how many animals will sign a marriage contract?

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
Heterosexual people want the other (and majority) heterosexual people to recognize their bond, and relationship...but since gays are NOT the majority...we do not change our traditions and laws for them.

Also, it doesn't matter if a government knows about degradations against marriage, because allowing gays to do so would start the ball rolling. I mean honestly...after this is given..what is to stop people from saying that "love" plays a role in marrying more than one person? I mean, you CAN love more than one person right? It HAS happened before..so I suppose those people...who can't help their feelings should be allowed marriage in the respect too? What about furry people..who love an animal...should they be allowed to marry it as well? How far will it go?

By that logic, it would have been inconcievable the idea to end the segregation laws in the mid-1900s...since people that were the target of those laws were a minority...not the majority.

And the second paragraph is a Slippery-Slope Logical Fallacy accompanied with a Straw-man Arguement.

What you are saying is that allowing marriage to Gay people will in turn allow marriage to multiple couples and animals after a while (slippery slope)...But since allowing marriage to animals and multiple couples is wrong, that makes allowing marriage to gay couples wrong too (straw man).

Do you have any credible evidence or sources to back up this logic?...Because, if not, it remains a fallacy.


Originally posted by A-non-a-mus

As we grow we 'develop' things, especially during certain stages in life. We all will have our own unique way of seeing the world. Sometimes, it's confusing, othertimes it's clear it always seems hopeless at some point or other. Especially the later highschool years, to mid twenties... I mean, what's on their minds? Guys begin to see girls differently, as certain changes occur... it's all new to them and confusing... They somehow feel the need to be with another... then look at how many there are out there, how can I make a right choise, I'll never find one that's right for me, if there'sonlyone, howcantheyevenbeinthisplace? Things come and go at great speeds, some ask girls out, others don't. Most times, at that early an age the girl is not going to be the right one for them, a poor choise is made, they just can't connect... Some give up, it's hopeless... how can you find one in a group of billions? ... They throw in the towel early... wait... they do get along with their friends just fine don't they? ... Why do they find it so easy to get along with other guys, yet they find girls so confusing? ... thus they see 'oh, I'm gay then' ... when in fact it's neither a choise, nor are they born with it, rather it is a state of mind developed when they were going through puberty. so there, question answered, NO ONE is born gay, and also it is NOT a choice they make... Like a seed planted in the mind, the origin of this seed is Satan, and as we grow older, this seed will take root, causing a strong grasp of how we think ever after.

Have any sources to back up this theory?

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by lion_roog
Have any sources to back up this theory?

well for one, my own studies :bleen: when I was at the age of twelve, I was already sick of hearing so much talk from the older crowds about their relationships... and began to pick up the reasons one dumps another, the way they act, the ways they live, and why. By the time I was fifteen, I had already taken up reading extencivly on the subject of changes people go through during and after puberty. I also recall studying at church 'true love' what make love differ from true love and how to spot them... it became where I was saddened by the way things were around me in a lot of ways for I could pick out if guys and girls (gay or not) were prone to heartbreak. I wish I could remember the books I had read... I never just took what one book said or one indivisual said. Rather I took what everyone said and what every book had said, and sorted through common and differences... There's much one can learn from simply having an open mind to others' expiriences ... Anyways, I went through many things at that age, yet I made a promise to myself that I would wait patiently through that age, and beyond, making as many friends as I can along the way, but never anything more... For I chose the way of caution towards finding someone for me, I wanted the choices I make to be the right ones.

Ok, so that was a longer answer than that I tried for, but the short version is, no I have no links and no knowledge of where I gathered this information from. However at the same time, yes, I do have information to back myself up, stored in my head...

[Ashara]

I've read some pretty rude posts about my religion on here, so...sorry, but not caring. >_> What being gay is is being curious, really. We're all curious about sexuality. Gay people take it to the extent of thinking that there...well, gay. I never said I didn't like them. It just sort of annoys me when they get mad that I don't understand them. I've met...20 or so gay people. I can think of 14 off the top of my head that were rude to me the first time they met me because I'm not too thrilled about being around lesbians and I was still questioning gay people. Now I can hang out with them all day, and not care at all.

[nathalie]

Well, you know, if you let them show you aren't thrilled about being around them, then why should they act nice to you anyway?

I've been bullied all my life, you think I was gonna make an effort in being nice to them? No thanks ...

It's just such a shame, that people can't judge other on how they actually are, meaning, their characters.
Instead of judging on what they are, and without even knowing them.

[Dyani]

Its interesting how people keep using the Bible as proof that God hates gays.. but what about the Koran or any other religious text? Do we have any non-christain but relgious people here that can quote for the different sides ofthis argument?
Just to add some spice! :D

[Gazelle]

i don't like talking about these things online because cyberly slapping someone is as much fun (JK) but i will express my feeling through my god, 2. So i hope noone's posted this here yet, cause i'd look stupid and be embarassed, but here yas gos. please enjoy.

http://ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-gay_marriage.mp3

WARNiNG! 2 The Ranting Gryphon Can Cause Mad Bird Cow Food Dieses if Over indulged!!!

[Dyani]

AH... the magnificent Gryffon.. :evilgrin:

Once again, WARNING! The opinions expressed in RG can be VERY offensive :p

[Gazelle]

Ah, that's what i forgot to put in that warning :lol:
But still Mad Bird Cow Food Dieses.

[Monai]

Actually, Gazelle, I posted that on page 5 ;)

But I have to admit, c'est tr?s dr?le.

[Gazelle]

DAMN! i knew it!!! But still power to the Gryphon baby! (listening to Starving as we speak)

Well...enjoy anyways... :lol: i'm out of things to say. :emo:

[lionloversam]

^ I just listened to like eight different rants, alright. Now, I am laughing like just thinking about the rants.

[Gazelle]

i listen to as many as i can every day. i'm addicted, what can i say

i NEED MY FiX!!!

but seriously i do agree the most with this rant.

[Only-now]

Hell..I can't resist!

First, I want to say that I am speaking of the UNITED STATES. NOT other countries in the world where they have a COMPLETELY different government. Blacks were not persecuted for nearly as long in any other country but ours, so I intend to speak about OUR country.

To be honest, what are the benefits of allowing openly gay people in the military? What exactly is wrong with others not knowing? In a way..wouldnt that encourage divisions in the military? It would cause problems within the ranks...and could possibly lead to a corruption of the image of an American soldier when some gay person joins the military and decides to do that whole feminine bull-**** they do.

Anyways, my point is that many of these are there for a reason. In the UNITED STATES..which is where we have been talking about this ENTIRE time...you are NOT killed or imprisoned for being gay..and to be honest, I don't think their were many cases (I wouldnt guess) in which people were jailed for sodomy. One, I haven't heard of those before (so they must not be too "popular) and secondly...we DID change THAT didn't we? I don't think THAT was a big controversy like this was it?

Also, I never said that all gays wanted GOD to recognize them. I said that marriage DOES have religious roots. It is mentioned in pretty much EVERY religion, and pretty much EVERY religion denies gay marriage as well.

I don't think ANYONE here actually read the link I provided did they? So they continually misinterpret what I am saying. Such as the animal thing. I am NOT comparing those two types of marriage...I am saying that once traditional marriage is ruined by allowing gay marriages..others are going to ask for more. The only reason we aren't having a debate about whether or not animals and humans should marry is because someone hasn't asked yet. After gay marriage, SOMETHING like so would come up, and you would see more people wanting that as well. This will just deal the initial blow that will weaken marriage so others can take advantage of it.

Finally...that Gryphon guy is a complete idiot. Very liberal for one, and also a furry. From what I have listened to...he doesn't sound like someone you want to listen to. Personally, I don't put much in those that just curse, criticize, and make fun of things such as my government and the military. Basically I just think he is a MORON

~Kiva

[Gazelle]

Alrighty then. Well i respect your opinion, and the fact that you have one.

i will resest commenting and giving my opinion because of what i said earlier, you know the slappingness. But i will say that you came across a bit confusing, and i'm not completely sure on where your thoughts come from, but again...i respect you :cheese:

As far as 2 goes i just want to point out that he is underground, he doesn't do this for money, nor fame (again, he's underground), and never focus on the generalization of anything for very long, because he attacks the source, and i enjoy listening to him.

BTW, i'm a fur. ;)

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Dyani
Its interesting how people keep using the Bible as proof that God hates gays..

God does not hate gays, nor has that ever been said... accually, I did say in one of my earlier posts, that God doesn't... There's only one thing God dislikes, and that is 'Sin' ... 'Gays' are not sin themselves.

[Only-now]

Oh, I know he doesn't do it for the fame..if he tried, he would be a VERY poor man..lol. I just don't like his style of "crtiquing" because it just seems crude, and uninformed. I believe he DID used to have a public show on the radio, but not anymore. I just don't like it, and I don't think it is healthy. The only thing I ever heard him say that I agree with is that the "gay pride" stuff is bad for the gay community...which it definitely is.

Thanks for the respect though..like I said, it IS harder to understand this side of the "argument" than it is yours. Not because yours is stupid..but because yours is based off of things that are relatively easy to relate to one another. Love ----> Marriage...but "my" side focuses a bit more on the vague policies of tradition, and human nature.

Like I mentioned before...I AM outnumbered here...as there has been no one that agrees with me in the same way yet. My reasons are not religious..but more social and gut-feeling-like. There are a lot of idealistic people on this forum...and a lot of generally liberal people as well. I am not really the same way in many respects, so it is hard for me to have a "debate" that doesn't end up making ME feel like a minority, or feel like I am being personally attacked...especially when I have tried to refrain from seeming too upset for the most part.

Anyways, I would appreciate it if someone WOULD actually read what is on that link I provided. I am not totally informed on this topic myself..and I am not certain enough (because of faith etc) that my side is correct. I do however have history, psychology, human nature, and the majority of Americans on my side...and so I try and read why others disagree and see if I agree with their reasons. I think that this person in the link gave a good explanation and it is something that I also believe would occur. So...if you wish to debate with "me" specifically on something I said...then PLEASE read the link first so you understand COMPLETELY my point of view. Thank you...

~Kiva

[Kovu The Lion]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
God does not hate gays, nor has that ever been said... accually, I did say in one of my earlier posts, that God doesn't... There's only one thing God dislikes, and that is 'Sin' ... 'Gays' are not sin themselves.

Exactly, God doesn't hate anyone from what I've learned in bible, but rather he hates their actions..

So what I've to say is, God never said he hated anything, It was the Apostles and Disciples that said that.. Not god himself so I really don't believe it that much either *Shrugs*

being gay isn't a sin, its just seen that way because like people predicted, people would misinterpret the bible, and they do it every, single, day


Originally posted by Only-now
Finally...that Gryphon guy is a complete idiot. Very liberal for one, and also a furry. From what I have listened to...he doesn't sound like someone you want to listen to. Personally, I don't put much in those that just curse, criticize, and make fun of things such as my government and the military. Basically I just think he is a MORON


It's about as much as your government as it is mine, does that not mean I have a say so in what goes on or what is going to happen to my country? If I wanted to go back I thought the four fathers wanted this country to have all kinds of people, so that EVERYONE could live here in peace. But sadly I guess you just don't want whats right for what THEY wanted of OUR lands, the United States of America, home of the free ?

IF it's going to be free, that means it should ALLOW EVERYONE. And being a Furry, and bisexual myself that post, Was VERY offensive.. And really.. I find this quite the hilarious post, seeing you continue to throw out the word "My" for everything that is OURS


Originally posted by Only-now
so it is hard for me to have a "debate" that doesn't end up making ME feel like a minority, or feel like I am being personally attacked...especially when I have tried to refrain from seeming too upset for the most part.

anddd.. some of your posts don't seem like personal attacks to some others now do they.. Hmm I sadly don't see why you would feel like the Minority when their are thousands of people with your same view Kiva, all though they aren't apart of this forums though. *Points to the millions of FULLY devoted christians and politics*

I would say a lot more on this topic, buttt I don't see a point in it right now :p

[Jammet]

Originally posted by Only-now
I said that marriage DOES have religious roots. It is mentioned in pretty much EVERY religion, and pretty much EVERY religion denies gay marriage as well.

Using this particular logic virtually everything would have religious roots.

I do understand you're not happy with nobody commenting much on the article you've liked to. It might be a bit easier to just quote bits and portions of it into this thread and giving the link to the actual article as reference. That makes it easier to understand.

However, you're quite insistant on marriage being tied to a religion. I can only guess that you have probably overlooked that sentence in my earlier reply to you yesterday where I wrote that marriage really must have been there way before even the stone ages.

About you thinking that there will be more demands once gay people may freely marry each other: Yes there will be.

(Have you not seen my reply? I mean, it's fine to stand firmly by your own opinion, but it would've been nice to at least address my reply with a hint where you think I'm wrong about it. Repeating yourself as you just did doesn't add to your points or make mine invalid. We put a lot of effort into what we write. If you think I should say what I think on specific points you feel I missed out on, just swivel your ear... )

The demands will keep coming until equality as a goal has been reached. All in parallel. And at that point, they will stop. I don't see that happening within the next centuries.

Change can also be a good thing. Keep in mind that countless of people may find great happiness in this particular request.

And lastly, unless straight couples only are suddenly permitted to marry brick walls, animals, plants and alien lifeforms, gay people won't make any such ludicrous requests either. It's not about being selfish, it's about (sorry to using this word so too often) equality.

PS: I love that beautiful picture in your signature. :curious:

[Dyani]

:( ah sorry for the using the Bible to *show how christians hate Gays.* that wasn't meant to sound like that at all. Sorry Anon! I'm not a Christian or read the Bible so I'm just talking a load of nonsense really!

Trying to look at it from the other side of the fence...
I can see how gays should not be allowed to marry, as being gay *could* be seen to be against nature. You don't see a lot of gay lions or gay eagles around. But I guess that could be one thing that makes humans different from other species o the planet.

[nathalie]

It is quite commen in the rabbit world though, hehe ... Mine actually were *eeks* haha

[Monai]

Originally posted by ?nathalie?
I've been bullied all my life, you think I was gonna make an effort in being nice to them? No thanks ...

Sorry to be horribly unoriginal, but as Martin Luther King said, "Let us meet their hate with our love." And, me being a pacifist and a supporter of equality, I sort of live by that now. XP

Although, I do agree sort of, if you give the impression that you don't like someone, don't be surprised if they don't like you either. Heh.

[nathalie]

Oh yeah ... people who have called me b*tch and every crappy word out there you can think of, hurted me, hitted on me ... while I didn't even do anything wrong.
And I should be nice to them?

Haha, no way thank you very much.

[lionloversam]

I find him funny. I don't appreciate his excessive profanity, but I can deal with it. I sort of took slight offense to parts of the gay marriage one. This is probably due to being brought up in a Christian household...

[Sombolia]

decides to do that whole feminine bull-**** they do.

:lol:

That is a stereotype. Believe it or not- not all guys act like the people on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.

Besides, aren't women allowed in the military, anyways? Er yes. So I see no reason why being feminine would even be a bad thing.

[Juniper]

Originally posted by Only-now
and could possibly lead to a corruption of the image of an American soldier when some gay person joins the military and decides to do that whole feminine bull-**** they do.


Oh yes, God forbid someone be themselves. Do you really believe what you're saying? Bud... that's a pretty... low... reason to not let someone in the military, and as Sombolia said, completely based on stereotype.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Only-now
To be honest, what are the benefits of allowing openly gay people in the military? What exactly is wrong with others not knowing? In a way..wouldnt that encourage divisions in the military? It would cause problems within the ranks...and could possibly lead to a corruption of the image of an American soldier when some gay person joins the military and decides to do that whole feminine bull-**** they do. Well, what are the benefits of letting women join the military? All available help can be used, so why discriminate? Also, I'm sure most gays who join the military would rather people NOT know... however, albeit most of the guys in the military talk about sex with their girlfriends/wives/whatever, so it's not like they wont ask a closet gay in the military what his experiences with girls are.

Also, you say that allowing gays will corrupt the image of the American soldier? What about those people that made the prisoners pose for nude pics? What about the supremely-macho ones like in "Jarhead"? I don't see how allowing gays to join the military would corrupt the image of the American soldier, because I'm sure that the gays who would join the military, who would be willing to go through intense boot camp and fighting, wouldn't be the feminine steriotypes.

[Dyani]

Originally posted by lionloversam
I find him funny. I don't appreciate his excessive profanity, but I can deal with it. I sort of took slight offense to parts of the gay marriage one. This is probably due to being brought up in a Christian household...

I completely agree with this. The Gryffin guy rocks even though he sometimes is extremely offensive to me.. anmd his over the top searing just makes me laugh, even though I am not one to swear a lot.
He has some very very goo points tho.

People, stop bashing Only-Now. He has an opinion and even though it can offend you please try to see his point of view. And don't call me a hypocrite, because you can't change things in the past and I am sorry for being on your back in the past O-N.

Share the love people!

[Ghamu]

Originally posted by Only-now I don't think ANYONE here actually read the link I provided did they? So they continually misinterpret what I am saying. Such as the animal thing. I am NOT comparing those two types of marriage...I am saying that once traditional marriage is ruined by allowing gay marriages..others are going to ask for more. The only reason we aren't having a debate about whether or not animals and humans should marry is because someone hasn't asked yet. After gay marriage, SOMETHING like so would come up, and you would see more people wanting that as well. This will just deal the initial blow that will weaken marriage so others can take advantage of it.
I did read it, actually. It seemed... well, not quite like a load of horse droppings, but not too far from it. I personally liked the paragraph about fathers marrying sons and lesbian sisters marrying each other and how they'd all be "gay" marriages. Yeah, and a brother marrying his sister would be a "straight" marriage, just as a guy marrying his mother would, so I didn't really see his point.

His point about changing the meaning of red and green traffic to mean the opposite of what they do now seemed odd as well. It made me think of the situation Sweden was in a few decades ago when we switched from driving on the left side of the road to driving on the right side of the road. When that switch was taken care of, every traffic sign in the entire country had to be changed. This was done during one night (obviously some prior arrangements were done before-hand and the people living here were informed about the switch long before it happened). So, big changes can be implemented quickly. One day, you drove on the left side of the road, the next, on the right side. Today, noone here is confused about which side of the road to drive on (well, apart from the occassional drunk driver or looney, I guess).


And still other customs may have entirely invisible or forgotten or unknowable benefits, which we might not even appreciate until after they were gone. How many social benefits were attached to the evening family meal that no one could have predicted or appreciated before women's liberation and the modern economy eroded its prevalence? Indeed, some recent studies indicate that a significant portion of the obesity "epidemic" is attributable to the decline in home cooking, predominately by housewives. Just imagine the response if critics of feminism had said, "If women join the workforce, kids will get fat and cost us billions in health care."
I think that one stands on its own, really. Heaven forbid men and women should start sharing the responsibility of rearing our spawnlings.

And here, from the end of the fourth paragraph from the bottom:

After all, we were right to abolish slavery as a matter of justice. But the lack of social consensus to do so birthed not only America's bloodiest war but generations of civil discord, which endures today.
Yeah, so the right path isn't always the easy one. Sometimes, people will even hate you for taking it.

It would be nice if people didn't think of me as a "nastie" that's out to "get" their Traditions? and change them into something unholy, though. :p

But I'm thinking that the more people that are of the opinion that allowing homosexual marriages will ruin the inherent meaning of marriage, the less marriage will mean after it has been legalized. "Oh, those filthy ******s are allowed to do this as well, that makes my marriage something I can't appreciate anymore/as much".

I mean, afterall, only you can destroy the sanctity of your own marriage.

[Dyani]

Originally posted by Ghamu
I mean, afterall, only you can destroy the sanctity of your own marriage.
So.. so true. Except when fate comes in an stomps it for you :(
I don't think you're a nasty person Ghamu!!!!!! :D

[Only-now]

All I can say is WOW. *laughs* I mean..from my reply to this point, almost EVERY post that has been in opposition to me has twisted, misinterpreted or gotten off topic from my words.

There are SO many instances where I would have to correct you all, that I don't have the energy to do so. I thought maybe reading the article would help...but even THAT person got things wrong. I don't mean that as you all should agree with me after reading it...but even he went off topic, and said things that were not meant in that way whatsoever.

First, I want to say that the current established religions didn't have to be around for people to have spiritual beliefs. Also, I doubt that marriage existed at this time you mention. It is MORE believeable that spiritual beliefs existed, and marriage did not (because of a lack of a legal system) or that both existed together. To try and deny the correlation between marriage and religion..or the relationship rather..is just a waste of time. It IS there. Once again, I want to say that my reasons against this are NOT religious..though the majority of religious people disagree with gay marriage.

Obviously it stands true that my side of the debate is much too hard for you all to understand. I don't mean to call you stupid or anything...but it seems like everyone opposed to me is having a very hard time even understanding where I am coming from. I thought that being outnumbered on this thread was bad...but when not one of the people who are "against me" can even debate with me with points that are accurate and matter..then this is just a waste of time.

I was not saying that all gays are feminine...I was saying that undoubtedly..there WILL be someone who joins and DOES act like that..and will do it for the SOLE purpose of causing "trouble". If you don't believe it..then just look at every activist community and SEE if something like so doesn't happen. Look at some of the outrageous law suits and tell me if that it "too far". In reality, it seems like a lot of you guys are grapsing for things to use against this argument, and that many of you are actually trying to make me look like the "bad guy". I have no problem with gays, but I think that the feminine crap is just funny and stupid. Most of the time it is an act..to purposely let everyone know that they are gay. So no Pnt,it is NOT someone being "themselves" the majority of the time. It gets SO old..and yes I do think it would ruin the image of our soldiers. Last time I checked...women are SUPPOSED to be feminine..and men usually have a different set of standards naturally and because of society.

If that article seemed like a load of "horse droppings" to you..then you didn't understand it very well. I am missing a lot of points that I wanted to point out about how you all had gotten the wrong idea, or misinterpreted me AGAIN...but sadly I am too lazy to go back and read. Just know, that if you responded to me..you most likely said something that was not correct whatsoever.

Finally, I can reply about the Gryphon thing. I am allowed to dislike him for whatever reasons I choose..and I never said that he didn't have the right to criticize my government. I am not however, going to like him for that..or the way he does it. I did NOT say that he was an idiot because he was a furry..but rather that was something else I did not like about him (though I don't think some of the actions that furries participate in help them to look either sane or intelligent).You may consider him intelligent...but I don't at all. I don't consider someone who curses every other word (as that usually symbolizes ignorance because they have no better way to express their thoughts or emotions), attends conventions where you dress up like a big furry animal, and blames the entire US military for one dog being shot, intelligent. In fact, I believe that on one of his shows...which mentioned gay marriage..a guy said that the only reason he agreed with it was because he didn't want "someone else's" God control him. How childish is that?! Anyways, my opinion of that "guy" stands, and so does my opinion on this issue.

If you all can't refute my argument logically and get the "facts" right..then please don't try at all.

I would like to say thanks to Dyani (even though you disagree with me) for actually "defending" me from the others. You know what is funny to think about though? The only reason this is a debate is because one person (me) disagrees with you all...*laughs* It is almost like the gay marriage issue (in the nation) on a smaller scale and reversed.

~Kiva

[Kovu The Lion]

Getting straight down with the points, I agree with you on certain cases, but some cases I do not however meaning that I do not have to agree with you and tell you I agree with you everytime you make a point now. But the military thing I just never saw happening. The way they treat you through Boot Camp, is to toughen you up, and to get you hard core ready for the military, if a gay is feminie and joined the military, he/she probably wouldn't survive through Boot Camp, and if he/she did, and was nominated into joining the army/military.. I'd say let em in because Boot camp = Hell.

That link you posted, I did visit, however I'm sorry to say I don't agree same with the grhypon thing. I'd rather just keep a neutral based side on it, so I can be seen as defending both sides in the subject, but really when it comes down to it the people who are against you, I've to agree with what they say because well sadly they aren't putting any opposition.. and being gay/bisexual whatever it is.. I can't really say anything out the ordinary, or against it, Without putting down a few friends of mine at the same time (Which I've already done) So its sorta hard for me to agree with the opposing side.. But if its going to go about the bible and gay's, then I'd go with the bible... Mostly being i'm trying to convert to christianity however though I don't see homosexuality as a Sin since God never said it himself, but people rather thought they heard or were inspired to say it, but it never really escaped the lips of God himself.

One thing I do and I will admit about what I do not like about homosexual/bisexual, is the way they flaunt out their sexuality(not saying all do), and the same with heterosexual's, however though.. I've YET to meet a homosexual that has flaunted or pushed their views onto others.. But I've heard plenty of ones that do do it.. Being most of those I've met have been rather secretive about their sexuality, and heterosexuals are rather open about theirs, being they talk about their boy friends or girl friends with their friends, or by passing notes to each other in class, or just talking about it on the streets..which is rather the annoying thing to hera 24/7..

Thus, you don't hear homosexual's going up to a group and saying "I had sex with a male/female last night and I'm gay" mostly because of the reason's because they will be easily and quickly prosecuted by mostly everyone around them and shoved aside like a piece of trash (Which I have experienced it) now I am not saying everyone would do that to one person, but I guarantee, EVERYONE will feel uneasy about it, That being you are heterosexual or homosexual, you will feel uneasy, and probably give a quirky look to that person.

Kiva: I do say I agree on you wholy for some things you've said like I've said before, but I am not also against your subjective views upon this matter. What I am against is persecution, and the though of "They don't deserve equal rights"

We are all Humans, We all deserve the same punishment, We all deserve, The Same Rights, No matter what happens.. Because people aren't entirely based on their acts, but on the way they act, and treat others.. If a homosexual was nice, and treated others nicely I'd say he/she should get equal rights, I mean he/she is only doing the same as everyone else, save for liking the same gender.

On another note, if Homosexual's treated Heterosexual's the way some Heterosexual's treated them.. I guarantee you, Their would be another world war, or something close to it.

and perhaps Kiva what you are posting is in direct conflict of us,and you aren't getting "our" facts straight ;) Think about that one..
I hope this post didn't hurt, nor offend anyone, and if anyone's views or judgements/decision's or thoughts conflict with this, Sorry

~KtL

[Ghamu]

Dyani: <3


Kiva: Well, you seem to be coming from the "I know what's really going on, so if you disagree with my opinion, you're wrong" point of view. But if you're being continually misunderstood, maybe the fault lies with you and not everyone else (I'm not talking about being pointedly misunderstood here, though). If your point is so difficult to understand, try to make it easier for us to get it, instead of saying that you're not going bother to explain it.

I read the article and didn't agree with it. If that makes me short-sighted or even an idiot, well then, so be it. But you mentioned in a previous post that in "some countries" that have legalized same-sex marriages, it's not been working out. It seems to work out fine here, but maybe there are things I'm not aware of. Someone asked you to name a country. Could you do that? It would help me a bit.

[Only-now]

Mostly the Netherlands for one..and I thought that I made it perfectly clear. I DID explain things in a way people could understand them....several times. I explained what I meant about religion, and how it ties to marriage...and people continue to misunderstand and misinterpret, and even point out things and disagree with them when they weren't meant that way.

You know I am the ONLY person arguing this side of view now..so it is a bit tough for me to "make it easier" and explain things OVER and OVER when everytime I fix one situation, another one comes up. It isn't about not taking the time..because I did several times..mostly because I didn't want everyone to get the wrong impression...but posts later I am STILL trying to explain what I mean. Every example I use is focused on literally, instead of what it means in terms of this. I don't know how to better explain it..but I did not make my speech complicated. People however, continue to get what I am saying wrong..and I don't mean it as an insult..but how am I supposed to "argue" with people who are basically arguing against their own interpretation of my side that is wrong?

I am NOT coming from that point of view at all. I said many times that I don't KNOW what is right or wrong here..but I know how I feel about the situation..and I know what many people think..and what the past and human nature has shown us/me. You guys can disagree all you want...but please disagree with what I am actually saying and not what you "make up" because you don't understand and aren't trying to. That is what I think is wrong here...you guys are not trying to understand what I am saying at all. You are reading a post..and rermebering a few things...and then because you feel strongly opposed to them....or misintepret them..you respond to something that really isn't the way I meant it. You are taking the fact that I disagree with it too far. Like your comment Ghamu about how men and women shouldn't have equal responsibilities in raising children. That is NOT what he meant AT all...and it isn't what I believe. That wasn't even the point. You overlooked the real point of it...to criticize something that isn't there. That happens continually..because since I disagree...every instance where something could be unjust on my side is capitalized on...even if it is wrong.

I feel very frustrated because I can't explain this better...but I do not have an attitude of not wanting to explain..nor do I think I am superior in my logic. I do think that it is harder to understand this side than it is to understand yours. I think people are letting emotion decide what they post..and I am just getting tired of people not being able to understand..when I have tried my best to explain it. Either you don't know how to understand it..you don't want to...you your guys aren't trying (I am not talking to any one person here).

I think the fault does lie with "you all" because I don't believe I have made it diffidult to understand me..and I HAVE corrected many misinterpretations before..and yet they still keep coming. I can't say exactly what I feel is the reason..because it is hard to explain it in a post. It's like..I say some things..and certain people pick out things that I disagreed with them on..or that they disagree with..and then because they are upset with my disagreement..they interpret it in a way that is completely wrong..and much more sinister than how it is actually meant.

Anyways, I don't know what more to say. I thought that last post explained it well enough...and I think this should end it. I guess I don't have much more to say on the topic now..lol.

~Kiva

[Sadiki]

I don't really see why so many is against gay marriage, there is nothing wrong makeing it offical. I'm against the idea tho that they could adopt or have kids any other way, sinse I don't think that is really a good inviorment for a child to grow in. first of all that kid would have to go through hard times just because other kids wouldn't think it's normal and also kids do need both role models, but gay marridge to make it offical should be right.

[Darkslash]

You know I am the ONLY person arguing this side of view now
I'm with you, but I don't argue/debate because this isn't the forum in which the issue will ultimately be decided. Ideology, though it drives the debate, will not decide the political solution.

Defense of Marriage Amendment has passed committee and will see a floor vote in the Senate in June. Congress will vote with November in mind, so things look good.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
I think the fault does lie with "you all" because I don't believe I have made it diffidult to understand me..and I HAVE corrected many misinterpretations before..

It's hard to debate because you tend to use logical fallacies in your debate here. I know where you are coming from with the social and traditional stand point...But I think if I want to understand it better, I should do my own research. That article has a point. But the article was mainly refuting the ideas from a book someone else wrote, so I didn't have a 100% clear understanding to the article (As I didn't read the book he talks about).

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by SimbaTheMighty
I don't really see why so many is against gay marriage, there is nothing wrong makeing it offical. I'm against the idea tho that they could adopt or have kids any other way, sinse I don't think that is really a good inviorment for a child to grow in. first of all that kid would have to go through hard times just because other kids wouldn't think it's normal and also kids do need both role models, but gay marridge to make it offical should be right.

The views I have posted previosly explained my reasoning behind my opposition to gay marriage...

That aside I also say it will cause a break in 'family'... and by that I mean, well gays can't have kids right, and you are concidered a couple, until you have at least one child... then that completes the family... There is adoption, yes but it is not their child in the end is it? ... Weither or not they become parents, it's still someone elses, for did they give birth to him/her? no... are their genes a part of him/her? no... what happens if their personalities clash? what then? abandon the child or something? ...
In one sense I guess it could be safe to call it a gay coupling rather than a gay marriage...
When 'family' is gone, the country is bound to fall (and yes, I'm aware of the fact that heteros too are breaking 'family' as well what with all the devorces, etc...)

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
The views I have posted previosly explained my reasoning behind my opposition to gay marriage...

That aside I also say it will cause a break in 'family'... and by that I mean, well gays can't have kids right, and you are concidered a couple, until you have at least one child... then that completes the family... There is adoption, yes but it is not their child in the end is it? ... Weither or not they become parents, it's still someone elses, for did they give birth to him/her? no... are their genes a part of him/her? no... what happens if their personalities clash? what then? abandon the child or something? ...
In one sense I guess it could be safe to call it a gay coupling rather than a gay marriage...
When 'family' is gone, the country is bound to fall (and yes, I'm aware of the fact that heteros too are breaking 'family' as well what with all the devorces, etc...) So if a straight couple cannot bear children, and they adopt somebody, the adopted child isn't theirs? And should a straight marriage without kids be known as a coupling or should it be known as a marriage?

How exactly is the country going to fall if there aren't more families? In fact, I think it might be the opposite... too many kids will create too much competition for jobs.

[Dare]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
There is adoption, yes but it is not their child in the end is it? ... Weither or not they become parents, it's still someone elses, for did they give birth to him/her? no... are their genes a part of him/her? no... what happens if their personalities clash? what then? abandon the child or something? ...


Are you implying that genetics are essential for a family to be considered valid? Are you implying that a genetic bond between parent and child is more important or stronger than a bond of love?

I just want to make sure I understand your meaning before I say anything else.

[A-non-a-mus]

Originally posted by Xinithian
So if a straight couple cannot bear children, and they adopt somebody, the adopted child isn't theirs? And should a straight marriage without kids be known as a coupling or should it be known as a marriage?

How exactly is the country going to fall if there aren't more families? In fact, I think it might be the opposite... too many kids will create too much competition for jobs.

The child isn't theres not because they're the parent rather because they didn't give birth to it... meaning, as though it is theirs, it is not truely theirs, it's genes are inherited to whoever it was who had given birth to him/her. You can change the parents, you can change a lot, but you cannot change the past, and will have to remember the child came from another.
In a sense, yes it could be called a coupling just as gays...

I'm talking family bonds... not family as in 'look seventeen kids, we are a powerful family' type of thing. The family is the basis for a strength of country if family is abolished then what reason do the soldiers pesses to protect, to fight for, to die for? If you are fighting one side for some other, there's really nothing there to push you to fight is there? Yet if you are fighting to protect your family you push yourself to you limit, if the family bond is strong that is.
Or you can think of it as, 'What happened to brothers standing up for one another? What about so many who say 'don't talk about my mom/dad' ... or how come it is often insulting the parents that causes a fight? ... that's a show of 'family bond' ... if that wasn't there, then really what reasons have you got to continue?... and why don't you kill your brother? afterall he is just 'competition' is't he?

[lion_roog]

Family bonds can happen outside of blood relations...look at street gangs...

[Jammet]

Originally posted by Only-now
[snip] ... I doubt that marriage existed at this time you mention. It is MORE believeable that spiritual beliefs existed, and marriage did not (because of a lack of a legal system) or that both existed together. To try and deny the correlation between marriage and religion..or the relationship rather..is just a waste of time. It IS there.

There have been many forms of marriage around for eternities now. Just plain a bond between two in love, bound to some basic rules. Gay marriage existed back then too, no doubt. Make them all spiritual if you want, that's probably likely in many cases and doesn't make any difference to what I'm trying to explain here. Admittedly, I'm halfway repeating myself, but ... while it's perfectly fine to doubt marriage has been around for very long if that makes you feel better, I am just certain it's been there.

You seem to base some of your opposition to gay marriage on your feelings, sometimes on religion -- then again not (you keep mentioning religion anyway), and then tradition. I have addressed traditions, I have addressed religions, I have basically pointed out that we've been there before. Your feelings are your own. You'll probably never feel right with things like that. It's just plain different than what you've come to appreciate before. Understandable.

I can perfectly follow most of the arguments made by others in opposition to you the arguments you present here.

It seems that some responses have upset you a little. I'm sorry if I added to that, perhaps I'm doing it again right this moment. Now you are basicaly saying that people "just don't understand" you. Would it really help any of your points if nobody understood them? No. Nowhere. Maybe you could make yourself easier understood? If we all don't understand what we say then we or some o fus have other issues than the ones we were debating. A simple "what I write is what I mean" approach is simple enough for me. I hope that's what you do most of the time.

Please do read your own posts over after- or before posting them while trying to see this through the eyes from someone who might not understand what you mean at first. Make yourself a little more clear.


Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I'm talking family bonds... [snip]. The family is the basis for a strength of country if family is abolished then what reason do the soldiers pesses to protect, to fight for, to die for? If you are fighting one side for some other, there's really nothing there to push you to fight is there? Yet if you are fighting to protect your family you push yourself to you limit, if the family bond is strong that is.

Would you prefer having the kids stay in the orphanage instead?

What kind of statement is that? Strength of family ... sounds good to me - yes, please. But ...

Army? Soldiers? Fighting? Brotherhood in arms? Patriotic pathos like this mixed up with thoughts about gay people possibly maybe adopting children and as a result rendering a whole country defenseless is so ... utterly out of place ... utterly out of perspective ... you and I could discuss a little about abolished family bonds if you want - when you leave stuff like this out of it.
Thank you very much. :yuck:

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus
I'm talking family bonds... not family as in 'look seventeen kids, we are a powerful family' type of thing. The family is the basis for a strength of country if family is abolished then what reason do the soldiers pesses to protect, to fight for, to die for? If you are fighting one side for some other, there's really nothing there to push you to fight is there? Yet if you are fighting to protect your family you push yourself to you limit, if the family bond is strong that is.
Or you can think of it as, 'What happened to brothers standing up for one another? What about so many who say 'don't talk about my mom/dad' ... or how come it is often insulting the parents that causes a fight? ... that's a show of 'family bond' ... if that wasn't there, then really what reasons have you got to continue?... and why don't you kill your brother? afterall he is just 'competition' is't he?

Family bonds can exist whether or not you're blood-related.. just as you can not feel a bond towards someone you're related to.

I don't see what this even has to do with a topic at hand.. by your logic, it'd be the same whether two men or two women or a man and a women adopted a child, wouldn't it?


@Only-now: If you're not argueing from a religious point of view, why do you keep mentioning religion?

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by A-non-a-mus

I'm talking family bonds... not family as in 'look seventeen kids, we are a powerful family' type of thing. The family is the basis for a strength of country if family is abolished then what reason do the soldiers pesses to protect, to fight for, to die for? If you are fighting one side for some other, there's really nothing there to push you to fight is there? Yet if you are fighting to protect your family you push yourself to you limit, if the family bond is strong that is.
Or you can think of it as, 'What happened to brothers standing up for one another? What about so many who say 'don't talk about my mom/dad' ... or how come it is often insulting the parents that causes a fight? ... that's a show of 'family bond' ... if that wasn't there, then really what reasons have you got to continue?... and why don't you kill your brother? afterall he is just 'competition' is't he? The soldiers protect our country for other motives as well. Some of them don't really have any families. Some of them also want to preserve the democracy for future generations, not necessarily their kids. Some of them want to fight for democracy to keep the equal rights that democracy offers.

If brothers protect eachother, it's not going to make much of a difference in the country unless if there was a mass military invasion upon the United States. I don't see how disrespect for parents ultimately would kill the country... it's bad, but it wont really affect things on a mass scale. And you've misunderstood me about the competition... I was saying that we would have more competition not against our actual brothers, but against the children of other families in the US.

[Stormfury]

http://tinypic.com/4pavs

For a continuation of this topic: please subsequence the thread!

Thank you.


-Sonique
000132679