Debate: Confederate Flag In School

[Kovu The Lion]

Hmm let?s see if we can have a debate here, get some attention going. IF this stirs up any problems, lock it immediately, But I want some Americans (and none Americans) view points upon this subject.

Okay here we go, in school we are studying American History and the ?use of the Confederate Flag?, many people disagree with it, and many people agree with it. But many a schools problems are this: The banishment of the Confederate Flag upon any articles of clothing, and if seen then immediate action must be taken.?

Our school has disallowed and banned the flag, if it?s on your car, your shirt, your pocket book, your wallet, anywhere. You get suspended from school for 2 days. Here?s what I see about the Topic. Why ban something of American history? I do know the KKK did use it as their symbol or wave it around during meetings and assemblies. But the flag shouldn?t offend Negro?s (No offense to any one of a different color) They should be offended by the people instead of the flag itself, (I got this because the flag is banned because of racial issues, and the blacks at our school didn?t like it, Once again no offense!) What I want to see is Lea Halalela?s side upon the story, what do you guys think should be done, and do you think they should allow the flag to be worn in school? Or if they should not allow the flag in school?

Well Lea, Lets here it!

I do want your opinion, but your opinion doesnt have to harass, or put down the south or north or the sides of the Confederate flags, Keep it /clean/ :)
~KTL~

[nathalie]

I think banning it is a little harsh.

I don't really know, in most Belgium schools, there isn't even a flag.
And there are very less clothing with involves the Belgium flag.
(only thing I can think of, is the shirt of our national soccer team)

[Utora]

Schools, the many I've been filteed through use the freedom of the black people as the thesis for the war. Wrong.

You want the best answer?

The causes of the war will be found at the foundation of our political fabric, in our complex organism, in the fundamental law, in the Constitution itself, in the conflicting constructions which it invited, and in the institution of slavery which it recognized and was intended to protect. If asked what was the real issue involved in our unparalleled conflict, the average American citizen will reply, "The negro"; and it is fair to say that had there been no slavery there would have been no war. But there would have been no slavery if the South's protests could have availed when it was first introduced; and now that it is gone, although its sudden and violent abolition entailed upon the South directly and incidentally a series of woes which no pen can describe, yet it is true that in no section would its reestablishment be more strongly and universally resisted. The South steadfastly maintains that responsibility for the presence of this political Pandora's box in this Western world cannot be laid at her door. When the Constitution was adopted and the Union formed, slavery existed in practically all the States; and it is claimed by the Southern people that its disappearance from the Northern and its development in the Southern States is due to climatic conditions and industrial exigencies rather than to the existence or absence of great moral ideas.

And more may be found here ----> http://www.civilwarhome.com/gordoncauses.htm

NOTE: To read the ENTIRE thesis for the war, go to that site before using only what I posted as my entire army for the argument. :cheese:

My grandfather, and home family has the convee flag up. I really don't agree with the North on many occassions, and they weren't all that 'glorious' and 'smooth shined' as the schools make it up to be. I think it's ridiculous that they ban it, and I'd leave the school such as my friend did once. Next thing you know, we're all wearin the same clothes so we don't offend people! Wait, aren't those called uniforms? Hmmm....

Ayways, my opinion...the flag should be permitted. Not because I think so, but, look at the war, it's background, the outcome. You know it reminds me of this:

"There are two possibilities for me: To win through with all my plans, or to fail. If I win, I shall be one of the greatest men in history. If I fail, I shall be condemned, despised and damned."
- Adolf Hitler, Nazi Dictator

He himself has nothing to do with what's going on :lol: but it's the words he used. In schools, and I went through many in VARIOUS regions of the USA - we are taught Civ' War was cuz' slavery, the south be bad, the north be good! and then they win, and that's how it stays. Some people are smart, look deeper and get the idear here. The south was NOT bad, or evil, like the Nazi's in ww2. They were just as good as the North, if not better. And because they lost doesn't mean they need to be condemned. Point is, that's the views of schools, and banning the convee flag there prooves their narrow minded views.

[unregistered user]

Its pretty popular among some students in junior high to/and senior high and you see it on a car now and then, its not connected to race here, its more err..something to look cool or being rebelious. I could be wrong but thats how i see it :E

I can understand why its banned at your school, since most people probaly see it as a symbol for slavery/racial slur/things like that.

I can also understand your point of view KTL but i guess it has been used to negatively to not be banned in school.

Take the swastika, it was a harmless symbol used in different occasions, i think one was as a sun symbol in india.

Just incase someone misunderstands because of this rather touchy subject i did not mean to offend anyone with this post and if i did i apologize.

[Ashara]

I'm glad I'm being home schooled now....They were constantly talking to me about because I'd accidentally scribble it on something. I don't see how the school could blame me, though. It's all around my house, and I see it literally every day. (Rambling....)
Anyway....I don't see anything wrong with it. It's history.

[Only-now]

The point of the Civl War was NOT over slavery. I was taught this in school, and when you look at it logically I think it makes since.

The war was REALLY fought over whether states of the United States had the right to choose to secede from the Union. THIS was the main reason that we went to war with the South. In the United States, the federal government is supreme, and thus the states cannot choose to not be part of the union for any reason. Slavery might have been one of the reasons the South seceded, but it wasn't why the North went to war with the south.

Slavery had existed in the North as well, but yes...the rural south had a huge need for slaves. The view of them being less developed over time, (for many other reasons). In fact, at first the south used indentured servants (sorry if I got the spelling off) to do labor in exchange for passage to America. When the south began to grow, they needed more labor than those servants could provide. So, they began taking slaves to use because that was the only way their way of life could survive.

Plus, I get tired of people thinking that slavery originated here. It has been going on for THOUASANDS of years all over the world. The black people sometimes tend to think that they are the only ones who suffered it, but so did white people, native americans, indians, and every other culture around the world.

Of course, slavery IS wrong, and it WAS originally mentioned in the Constitution, though it was revised and taken out.

Anyways, banning the flag has NO point at all. One, it should not offend anyone because it isn't a representation of slavery, or evil. I believe that black people have their own things that could be offensive to us, yet they are NEVER told not to wear something like so. I mean, what about all the Malcolm X shirts? He was a militant black, who thought it was best to use violence to get your way? I think THAT should be banned as well, because it is offensive to white people...right? At my school, it isn't banned, and I live in Virginia. I mean, there is a point to where you have to set a limit...and I disagree with purposely shoving the flag in someone's face JUST to cause problems. But having the flag, people should be able to deal with...and that freedom of expression shouldnt be supressed because of a few who do not like it.

Btw, I in NO way can see the Nazis in comparison to the South. See, the south didn't really want to exterminate millions of people, or invade the rest of the US and make their law, EVERYONE'S law. Those are some very fundamental points to make, but the list could go on for a long time. Plus, how can you actually quote someone like Hitler? (I mean, I agree with your point of view on the flag..but nothing he has said should ever be used in the context of anything other than evil...imo)

~Kiva

[Nephilim]

Oh, I understand the reasoning behind it.

In England and many other countries we have school uniforms, and not just to be awkward. Having a uniform on makes you conform to a certain social role (i.e. the The Stanford Prison Experiment), thus dulling your individuality; makes kids behave better.

I know fully well that the majority of American schools don't have a uniform, but the idea behind it is the same, and pretty much what Boos said. Something that puts across your opinion - or in this case, something you have pride in - can be potentially dangerous. Again with the idea of the Swastika, but only in a school so therefore on a smaller scale- it can be used to put across a variety of different ideas and so on.

So yeah, no flags. Your education will hardly suffer without them.

[Only-now]

Well, school is fundamentally a place for education, but other things arise in that area, that can spread to the rest of the country and life.

I guess it depends on whether you take pride in certain freedoms, etc. I also do not think education suffers from someone being open about their opinions. Of course, if it was a shirt that was blatantly racist, or crude etc...that SHOULD be banned, or that person punished. Having the symbol of a flag that means a variety of things is not reason to ban it.

If anything, it is just another example of bureaucracy, and a liberal one at that. "No one can be offended ever, because that could mean we get in trouble...so sacrafice ALL people's expression, speech etc, so we can protect ourselves!"

There is a one sentence philosophy behind that.

~Kiva

[Ashara]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Only-now
[B]The point of the Civl War was NOT over slavery. I was taught this in school, and when you look at it logically I think it makes since.

The war was REALLY fought over whether states of the United States had the right to choose to secede from the Union. THIS was the main reason that we went to war with the South. In the United States, the federal government is supreme, and thus the states cannot choose to not be part of the union for any reason. Slavery might have been one of the reasons the South seceded, but it wasn't why the North went to war with the south.

Slavery had existed in the North as well, but yes...the rural south had a huge need for slaves. The view of them being less developed over time, (for many other reasons). In fact, at first the south used indentured servants (sorry if I got the spelling off) to do labor in exchange for passage to America. When the south began to grow, they needed more labor than those servants could provide. So, they began taking slaves to use because that was the only way their way of life could survive.

Plus, I get tired of people thinking that slavery originated here. It has been going on for THOUASANDS of years all over the world. The black people sometimes tend to think that they are the only ones who suffered it, but so did white people, native americans, indians, and every other culture around the world.

Of course, slavery IS wrong, and it WAS originally mentioned in the Constitution, though it was revised and taken out.

Anyways, banning the flag has NO point at all. One, it should not offend anyone because it isn't a representation of slavery, or evil. I believe that black people have their own things that could be offensive to us, yet they are NEVER told not to where something like so. I mean, what about all the Malcolm X shirts? He was a militant black, who thought it was best to use violence to get your way? I think THAT should be banned as well, because it is offensive to white people...right? At my school, it isn't banned, and I live in Virginia. I mean, there is a point to where you have to set a limit...and I disagree with purposely shoving the flag in someone's face JUST to cause problems. But having the flag, people should be able to deal with...and that freedom of expression shouldnt be supressed because of a few who do not like it.




Nicely said...that IS very annoying. I'm not saying (Definantly not...!) that all black people say that, but I've run into a few that actually cussed me out for being white, and putting their grandparents through slavery. Oh, the joys of being a Dixie.

[Utora]

Originally posted by Only-now

Btw, I in NO way can see the Nazis in comparison to the South. See, the south didn't really want to exterminate millions of people, or invade the rest of the US and make their law, EVERYONE'S law. Those are some very fundamental points to make, but the list could go on for a long time. Plus, how can you actually quote someone like Hitler? (I mean, I agree with your point of view on the flag..but nothing he has said should ever be used in the context of anything other than evil...imo)

~Kiva

Man I wish I had like, one of those FBI audio recordings when Mr. Hudson said in History, You want a good face of the South? Well let's flip our pages to 298. The Nazi's my friends, the Confederates Extream.

Now you have to ask yourself, would you like to know if that helped me in my walk with ww2 problems? Or, if it helped the stduents grasp the Civil War any better? I seriously hate to see them now :E We can only hope a better education errupts soon, or what yalls saw a few days ago coming from me with be mad fire. Anywho, that's why I quoted Hitler and the Nazi's, because upstairs, for Klondike Utora, they have relavence ((sp)) because that's how I was educated sadly. :ayecapn: But a few years outta the system, I regained conciousness and realized the truth. ;)

[Only-now]

Apparently not if you are still quoting them, and well...following them in a sense. I still have more to discuss on that issue.

Also, how someone teaches doesn't necessarily mean it is correct. The same could go for how I am being taught, but the fact that most teachers don't compare the south to the Nazis shifts my opinion more in my direction.

There was also a professor who said that September 11th was a good thing...that doesn't make it right, it is just his way of teaching and his opinion. Good thing that he got crucified for that! *grins*

~Kiva

[HasiraKali]

This was an issue at my high school. The school is called Robert E. Lee High School. For years there was a Confederate battle flag (the one everyone associates with the confederacy) on the side of the gym. Someone complained and rather than fight or make a big fuss, the school simply switched to the actual Confederate flag. Someone complained about that so they just designed a new one. The battle flag is still ALL over the school in one way or another. It's on my patches on my letterman, but apparently, as long as it's not on the gym it's ok. I honestly thought the whole thing was silly. The flag was never officially banned but the school just took it down to avoid a fight over something so petty.

[Krypto]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion Why ban something of American history? I do know the KKK did use it as their symbol or wave it around during meetings and assemblies. But the flag shouldn?t offend Negro?s (No offense to any one of a different color) They should be offended by the people instead of the flag itself.[/i]

Yeah...that pretty much sums up how I see it.

I'm hesitant to give mine, because I just don't like opinions. I wish that there could be a right and a wrong and be done with it. This gray stuff, if you will, hurts my head. :lol:

[Xinithian]

I'm going to state my opinion of this matter quite frankly; I hate it when people wear the confederate flag. I believe that the war was fought over slavery, because slavery was too tied into the south's economy. If slavery was abolished when the south was still a part of the union, the south would have been crippled economically. However, the thing that bothers me about the confederate flag is the mentality in the south during the reconstruction. There was no reason for them to be so racist towards blacks after the 13th amendment. But it was that whole view of white superiority that kept the "southern mentality" alive. The south was bitter towards blacks and the north because the 13th amendment showed that blacks were truly equal to whites, which proved that the south's previous mentality was wrong.

I know that a lot of people wear it because it's the "cool/rebellious" thing to do... but if you look more into the issue, it's really displaying a racist mindset from the reconstruction of the south. I see it being similar to people wearing swastikas to show signs of power.

EDIT: Seeing as though other offensive remarks and signs are prohibited from schools (or at least from what I have heard), I see no problem with banning the confederate flag for personal statements.

[Kintaru]

The reason that it's banned, atleast in my opinion, is quite simple. It's seen by the government as a symbol of rebellion. A lot of people actually want it just cause it's cool or trendy, or anything else, but to many the only message it sends when they see someone with it is that they believe that the south should still be a seperate country(and to a lesser degree that slavery should be legal, which insults many african americans I know.), and in a way it's indirectly saying to the government that you don't want to be part of the U.S. Now, are most people really trying to send that message, no, but that doesn't make it right either. I have great respect for the US flag. There are a lot of things people might not agree with when it comes to our gov, etc, but the flag is a pure, sacred symbol of the people, and every ideal that our country strives to stand for. So I am personally against the confederate flag being flown or displayed for that reason, it'd disrespectful to Old Glory.

Yes, it is a part of history, and so we can't pretend it never existed. But look at it this way, do you think that people in Germany should be allowed to fly flags with the Swastika or not? It's just a symbol, sure, but it's a very hurtful one to many. And the confederate flag is insult to many people, particularly blacks, and I agree with them.

(Though I must admit, the General Lee wouldn't look nearly as cool if it didn't have the confederate flag painted on the top of it, hehe. ;) )

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Krypto
I'm hesitant to give mine, because I just don't like opinions. I wish that there could be a right and a wrong and be done with it. This gray stuff, if you will, hurts my head. :lol:

I.. wha? A world like that would really, really suck.

Um.. I think if people wanna wear it, whatever. But I can understand the reasoning for it being banned.

My school's dress code is a bit ridiculous.. apparently, we're allowed to have "Jackass" patches on our backpacks and 'innopropiate' stickers on our binders, but my friend got in trouble for wearing a shirt that said 'Kiss Me, I'm Irish'. wtf.

ETA: ..however, I wore my "Kiss Me, I'm Punk" shirt to school, and no one said anything. Eh?

[Kintaru]

Why would he get in trouble for wearing a kiss me I'm Irish shirt? Those have been around for ages, what's the big deal?

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Kintaru
Why would he get in trouble for wearing a kiss me I'm Irish shirt? Those have been around for ages, what's the big deal?

Eh, it's just a case of political correctness going too far. Things get offensive over time too, like spastic, nigger, and soon... pike. Oh noes.

Edit: Oh, and Kiva, your sig is too big. You'll have to change it

[Kintaru]

Any irish person who's offended by that shouldn't be allowed to be Irish. ;)

*Irish Pride.* I mean come on, how can that be offensive? PC is going way to far. Soon I won't be able to have a shirt with a picture of ice cream on it cause is offends fat people, or a picture of a dog cause it offends people who like cats, or a picture of a car cause it offends people who were in accidents.

Oy, it's rediculus.

And damnit, Kiss me, Cause I'm Irish! :cheese:

[Darkslash]

The Confederate flag represents much more than racism and slavery.

It's a symbol, especially today, of that region's (South's) pride in their heritage as independent and of their miliary tradition.

And as a special treat, I'll post Ann Coulter's view on the matter:


VICE PRESIDENT Al Gore, Bill Bradley and John McCain have all denounced the Confederate battle flag as representing slavery and have demanded that it be removed from all public buildings. Whenever I hear white people somberly opining that the Confederate battle flag symbolizes slavery, I can't help wondering who their friends are. Do their friends support slavery? Does anyone -- apart from a few demonstrably insane losers?

In a duly famous "Saturday Night Live" skit, Eddie Murphy goes on a bus disguised as a white person and discovers that as soon as the white people think all the blacks are off the bus, they start serving cocktails and dancing. Politicians who claim the Confederate battle flag symbolizes slavery may as well be claiming that all the white people get cocktails and music when the last black person leaves the bus. It's not true.

So as a white person, I would like to assure all nonwhites that these politicians are lying: White people do not secretly support slavery any more than they drink cocktails and dance on the bus.

The Confederate battle flag today has nothing to do with race. It stands for a romantic image of a chivalric, honor-based culture that was driven down by the brute force of crass Yankee capitalism, which was better at manufacturing weapons than using them, and that shortly thereafter gave us the Grant administration and the Gilded Age. (We'll leave out trebling the average life span, ending chattel slavery, creating a world in which half the human race gets beaten up a whole lot less by the other half, and various other things that those money-grubbing followers of that awful Hobbes guy somehow accomplished despite caring only about making a buck.)

It stands for a proud military heritage shared by both blacks and whites in the South. The reverence for tradition and pride in historical antecedents are precisely what make Southerners, black and white, such stalwart patriots.

The Confederate battle flag controversy is a completely synthetic issue created by the same people who believe there is a burgeoning class of brilliant blacks graduating from law school every year, but Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg refuses to hire them out purely out of racism. They are picking a fight in an election year to enable The New York Times to distribute daily reports on the superior Democratic response on the question of the Confederate flag.

It is also a completely illogical issue. If the Confederate battle flag can be tagged as a tribute to slavery, how is it that the American flag has gotten a pass so far? Slavery existed far longer under Old Glory than under the Stars and Bars.

More urgently, what's with the African garb and kente cloth worn by some American blacks supposedly as a symbol of black pride? White slave traders weren't dashing into the jungle and capturing their own slaves: They were buying them, fair and square, from their African masters. Slavery, as Joe Sobran has remarked, is the only African institution America has ever adopted. Indeed, slavery still exists today, at the end of the 20th century, in some parts of Africa.

There is no shortage of artifacts that could be accused of "representing" slavery. Perhaps the race demagogues should be demanding that South Carolina change the name of the state since that was the same state that fired on Fort Sumter. They could take a page from the French Revolution and start changing the calendar and the names of the months in light of the fact that slavery existed during months with names like "February."

But there is one problem with a total rejection of all things related to slavery: It was the Democratic Party that supported it. The Republican Party was formed for the specific purpose of opposing slavery. I'll start believing the Confederate battle flag hurts somebody's feelings as soon as the existence of the Democratic Party hurts their feelings, too.

These are the rules -- and pay close attention, because they are completely arbitrary: "Dixie" is bad because it uses Southern black dialect. Rap music, however, is good, even though it employs a black criminal dialect. The flag under which slavery flourished for almost a century is good. But the flag under which slavery existed for less than a decade is bad. One continent's slavery is good, but another continent's purchasing of those very slaves is bad. And for the final rousing conclusion: The party that supported slavery, leading to the Civil War, is good. But the party that was created expressly to oppose slavery is bad.

[Simbaspirit]

is the confederate flag different than the US flag???

[Sombolia]

Originally posted by Simbaspirit
is the confederate flag different than the US flag???

Yeah, try a Google image search. I would, but I'm too lazy.

[unregistered user]

This thread is too long for me right now, I've been reading, doing math, and taking tests alld ay today so I'll keep this short:

I think it should be preserved in a historic sense but not as a symbol or sign of some kind. My biggest qualm with it is that people use it as an idiotic show of rebellion, not so much an issue of racial issues (though I can see how it could offend those of African American ethnicity).

Anyway, I say ban it save for a historic remembrance. But that's just me *shrugs*

[DerekNitroRC]

they have already removed the confederate Georgia state flag from our state period, they made some new flag that is ugly, I want them to bring back the old one!

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
I believe that black people have their own things that could be offensive to us, yet they are NEVER told not to wear something like so. I mean, what about all the Malcolm X shirts? He was a militant black, who thought it was best to use violence to get your way? I think THAT should be banned as well, because it is offensive to white people...right?

According to a friend of mine, who's into Malcolm X, Martin Luther King Jr. and other leaders of the Civil Rights Movement...Malcolm X, later in life, adopted a more peaceful approach to the Civil rights Movement.


But there is one problem with a total rejection of all things related to slavery: It was the Democratic Party that supported it. The Republican Party was formed for the specific purpose of opposing slavery. I'll start believing the Confederate battle flag hurts somebody's feelings as soon as the existence of the Democratic Party hurts their feelings, too.

Hehe...According to something i read a few months back...the Democratic Party in the 1800s was considered conservative...while the Republican party was considered to be liberal...which is opposite of what they are considered today. They were polarized in the opposite way.


I guess many people oppose the confederate flag because the Confederacy is so closely linked to slavery...so to represent the Confederacy is also representing slavery to many people.

[Only-now]

Well, the shirts I see referring to Malcolm X have nothing to do with his peaceful influences, and you NEVER see them supporting any peaceful demonstators. In fact, they make fun of those.

Anyways, I understand why people COULD get offended, but I think it is more the job of those people to change their mentality, and stop looking for something to be offended by. Just as with SO many other instances, someone needs SOMETHING to get upset over, so they extend theri reach to some flag, cause, etc to get people worked up.

I don't think that the flag insults our flag at all. True, it did represent that those people wanted to be seperate, but there are plenty (if not the majority) of people who would fly the confederate flag, but are still great patriots. If anything, people use it mostly for style, rebellion, or because they believe it represents the south. Almost like having a state flag but this is one of a confederation of states. I HIGHLY doubt that most people who support the Confederate flag still want to break away from the Union.

Personally, I just think it is another political correctness issue and it is REALLY getting tiring. I mean, I recently heard how Jesse Jackson said that a police department was racist against blacks because the silouette targets they shot at on the shooting range were black. I mean COME ON PEOPLE!

Oh, and to Neph...yeah, I spent about an hour trying to get that pic right. Sites kept messing up, kept having to transfer it, and I tried different sizes. Right now, I am not taking the time to change it (plus I am at school) so maybe I will try later. I did put that at 500X300 pixels though..and that is the limit right? Thats what I resized it to already.

~Kiva

[Krypto]

Originally posted by Sombolia
I.. wha? A world like that would really, really suck.

Ok.=)

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Only-now

Personally, I just think it is another political correctness issue and it is REALLY getting tiring. I mean, I recently heard how Jesse Jackson said that a police department was racist against blacks because the silouette targets they shot at on the shooting range were black. I mean COME ON PEOPLE! Would you get upset if people were wearing swastikas, saying it represented the most powerful period of German history?

[Darkslash]

Would you get upset if people were wearing swastikas, saying it represented the most powerful period of German history?
It is not a matter to get offended over when the fact behind the wearing is true... Hitler's Germany was the most powerful period in that country's history. Because the power was used for evil is the matter to get offended over. The symbol itself is merely that -- a symbol that prior to its use by the Nazi party, was merely a Hopi Indian pictogram.

[Scorplion]

I don't have a problem with it. But then, there aren't many symbols I have a problem with.
However, public schools and the like, in the interest of keeping their a**es out of the fire must try and keep the majority happy.
And by majority, I mean the people who yell the loudest.

[Krypto]

Originally posted by Scorplion
I don't have a problem with it. But then, there aren't many symbols I have a problem with.
However, public schools and the like, in the interest of keeping their a**es out of the fire must try and keep the majority happy.
And by majority, I mean the people who yell the loudest.

Then yell back! :shout: But that wouldn't be enlightened, eh? So, what now? Now we're back to my first post. :lol: :cheese:

[Prince Simba]

The Confederate States of America does not exist any longer, so why exactly is it a problem? Today, America is more like the Confederacy than the Union; a bunch of people who are too lazy to do their own work. The only difference between now and then is the fact that there are no slaves.

Then again, there are all those whiny children who think they have a right to not be offended or annoyed. It's like everybody on the planet wants to live in a box, where they are King/Queen of their entire box and everything inside the box goes their way and if it doesn't, they just get to start cutting off heads until they feel better.

The day people have a right to not offended or annoyed will be a day to curse forever.

I take great offense at whiny people, especially people who want to whine about the visibility of the flag of a nation that existed for about 4 years, more than a century ago.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Prince Simba
I take great offense at whiny people, especially people who want to whine about the visibility of the flag of a nation that existed for about 4 years, more than a century ago. The thing is, it's not necessarily about the actual confederacy. It's about the southern mentality that followed it, which was primarily white-supremacy. People say that it doesn't stand for racism against blacks, but if that was the case, why was the south so racist towards blacks, even through the 1960's? There was no reason for them to have segregation.

[Prince Simba]

Originally posted by Xinithian
People say that it doesn't stand for racism against blacks, but if that was the case, why was the south so racist towards blacks, even through the 1960's? There was no reason for them to have segregation.

Maybe it's because that's the way things always were and people were just used to that.

It's been proven throughout history in many soceities; drastic changes do not come easily.

[Kovu The Lion]

Well this post stirred up some awesome points, many of which I never knew oO, but for some of the things that are added in here I guess I should now throw in my opinion:


Originally posted by Xinithian
People say that it doesn't stand for racism against blacks, but if that was the case, why was the south so racist towards blacks, even through the 1960's? There was no reason for them to have segregation.

I think that what PS said was most discribably right, they didn't know any better? They proably thought seeing them as a different skin color (and most being from britain not seeing much blacks around (excuse me if I'm wrong)) they thought them /inferior/ to which all the others were around them but they as I said didn't know any better and they were just like any other high school bully, Force them to do things because they didn't fight back(Until later on)

I see this thing as a flag, and that is it. Theres more important things to be offended by than a flag that existed somewhere, a long time ago? :S

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Kovu The Lion
I think that what PS said was most discribably right, they didn't know any better? They proably thought seeing them as a different skin color (and most being from britain not seeing much blacks around (excuse me if I'm wrong)) they thought them /inferior/ to which all the others were around them but they as I said didn't know any better and they were just like any other high school bully, Force them to do things because they didn't fight back(Until later on) The flaw in that is that the blacks had proven themselves as being intelligent well before the civil war, with such black politicians as Frederick Douglass. There were also many abolitionists in the north, who viewed blacks as (almost) equal to themselves. The south intentionally hated and discriminated blacks after the 13th amendment. Such proof of this is the Grandfather clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause) , which made citizens of the U.S. take an extremely challenging literary test and pay an expensive voting tax if their ancestors could not vote prior to 1861 (making it nearly impossible for blacks to vote, since their ancestors could not vote legally before the civil war). There was no reason for any of these laws. The only reason why the south did this was because they felt bitter about losing slavery, and wanted to take out their frustration on the blacks, even though they should have taken it out on the northeners instead. I could see why students should be able to wear the confederate flag if the south had taken their revenge on the north (therefore not making it a racist issue but rather a political issue), but it's way too obvious that the south enacted their revenge on blacks.

[Darkslash]

There was no reason for any of these laws.
There was a reason for those laws -- to keep blacks 'in their place' so as not to effect the changes in their society wrought by the Civil War and requisite constitutional amendments. It wasn't a good reason, but a reason nonetheless.

[Xinithian]

Originally posted by Darkslash
There was a reason for those laws -- to keep blacks 'in their place' so as not to effect the changes in their society wrought by the Civil War and requisite constitutional amendments. It wasn't a good reason, but a reason nonetheless. Exactly, so why would somebody want to wear a flag that represents that mentality?

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Darkslash
There was a reason for those laws -- to keep blacks 'in their place' so as not to effect the changes in their society wrought by the Civil War and requisite constitutional amendments. It wasn't a good reason, but a reason nonetheless.

Meh, semantics...But I think that Zinithian was basically implying that when he said there was no reason. So you guys are basically agreeing...:p

I agree with Xinithian...I mean, why would you want to glorify a time in history which was marked in the vast mistreatment in your fellow men? There's nothing wrong with being prideful in your Southern Heritage...but be prideful of the things that marked the advancement of the people...not a time when people were sold and traded as property.

[Only-now]

I suppose then that the United States flag should also be banned because at one time the entire United States believed in slavery as well?

At one time the south believed in slavery, because of its economy etc, just like the United States did. The primary reason that slavery did not exist in the North is NOT because those people were more enlightened, or morally more intelligent, but because they had become more industrial.

The view that blacks were inferior in the south came from the fact that their culture was much different from that of the white culture. In a way, it could not be avoided..because where they were taken from was NOT as developed as the European cultures. They still lived in tribes, hunted with spears, etc. Thus, the skin color only became a way to recognize, and eventually became the typical viewpoint.

The Confederate flag has to be interpreted as racist for it to be offensive. The reason that most people wear it is NOT because they are racists, or believe in slavery. I think that THIS is the fact that should be recognized, and not that the people who wear this flag be supressed. People do not wear it because they want to represent the slavery of the south, but because this is a symbol that is inherently south because that is exactly what it stood for.

By the way, sorry about bringing up an old topic, but I am bored and wanted something to post about..hehe.

~Kiva

[Darkslash]

It's very true that the US flag is much more suited to be considered a symbol of racism and slavery than the Confederate flag. The Civil War was about much more than slavery.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Only-now
I suppose then that the United States flag should also be banned because at one time the entire United States believed in slavery as well?

At one time the south believed in slavery, because of its economy etc, just like the United States did. The primary reason that slavery did not exist in the North is NOT because those people were more enlightened, or morally more intelligent, but because they had become more industrial.

The view that blacks were inferior in the south came from the fact that their culture was much different from that of the white culture. In a way, it could not be avoided..because where they were taken from was NOT as developed as the European cultures. They still lived in tribes, hunted with spears, etc. Thus, the skin color only became a way to recognize, and eventually became the typical viewpoint.

The Confederate flag has to be interpreted as racist for it to be offensive. The reason that most people wear it is NOT because they are racists, or believe in slavery. I think that THIS is the fact that should be recognized, and not that the people who wear this flag be supressed. People do not wear it because they want to represent the slavery of the south, but because this is a symbol that is inherently south because that is exactly what it stood for.

By the way, sorry about bringing up an old topic, but I am bored and wanted something to post about..hehe.

~Kiva

The only problem with using the United States flag in this example is that the United States still existed after the Civil War, The United States went through the Civil Rights movement, the United States progressed as a society. The Confederacy was elimited at the end of the Civil War, along with slavery. And that's not saying that the Civil War was about slavery, because it wasn't.

The Confederate flag represents the Confederacy. It represents the south during that time period. The south, during that time period represented slavery in the United States. So I hope you can see why some people would be offended at the notion of glorifying an era in time and the corresponding society that inslaved their ancestors.