Sexism in the Lion King?

[chaotic serenit]

*cough* I decided to write an essay about this subject, since it's one that's been bugging for awhile after reading multiple articles on it. I hashed out the critic's arguments in a 27,000+ word essay, but that's apparently too big for this board, so I posted it in my LJ.

New link may contain references that are PG-ish, but nothing graphic:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/post_rapture/633.html

I'd prefer to keep the commentary on the topic here. Just use my LJ as a stream, since I'd have to post three times to get the whole essay here. Feel free to debate!


Oh, and by the way, I'm new. *waves* Hi everyone.

~edited by Simba '04 by request


Edit: I apologize for that guys. I didn't expect the replies I got on my LJ, and I overlooked the fact that the vast majority of individuals on my LJ list are my age (19) and older. So I've changed the link to an alternate LJ and turned off comments. My apologies to anyone who may have been offended.


Edit 2: Information inaccuracy has been fixed thanks to one of our lovely debators.

[va-kasi]

Meh. You think Simba's pride alone would kill that idea of sexism.

Plus, you have remember than they're lions. Males are dominant in lion prides. ;)

The jungle book is only something I can think of that is slightly sexist. Theres no female chracters at all. Its not something I get offended by however.

Edit: And welcome :vitsm:

[chaotic serenit]

The thing that bothers me - but which I avoid saying, because I know I'll get lambasted for it - is it really so wrong for some women to rely on a man? I mean, naturally, males *are* the protectors. Physically, they are stronger, have better stamina, tend to be more aggressive...it isn't that way just to be be contrite. That's just the way it is. This doesn't mean that *every* individual fits the description, but it is how it works for the majority. I think I agree with my mother that alot of feminism has lost touch with the idea of the empowerment that comes just from being able to depend on a man now and then.

And thanks. :)

[lion_roog]

I can kick any woman's ***!!..:diva:

Very informative essay...I like the last part where you talk about Simba and Nala and the Can you feel the love scene...my favorite part of the movie...:D

[Nalalcholist]

"Nala SECOND-TIER CHARACTER" ? Whatthehell.... ? :confused:

"Rafiki FEMALE" ? Areyoudrunk ? :die:

"Nala exists only as vessel for Simba to find both friend and lover in, lacking any valuable characteristics of her own that aren't connected to a male character" ? You're crazy, MAN !

Nala is the lioness who escapes from the Pride Land to find help...is the one who tries (with Rafiki's help) to make Simba go back home... Without the lionesses, Simba alone wouldn't have never defeat the Hyenas and Scar...

The lionesses have the most important works to do in a pride, like hunting, takin care of cubs, "entertaining" the dominant Male (:cheese:)

And don't forget female like it... ; )

[chaotic serenit]

No, no, I was disagreeing with those points.

:D

Technically, Nala is more or less "second-tier." Simba's really the only first-tier characters, whose action is carried and followed throughout the entire movie, though Nala, along with Timon and Pumbaa, come close. Actually, it's fairly common to only have one major protagonist.

And Rafiki was female in the Broadway musical version of The Lion King. It was actually rather nifty. I thought it would be strange, but it fit just as well into the story without affecting the plot in any way.

[Nalalcholist]

Originally posted by chaotic serenit
No, no, I was disagreeing with those points.



Ah...ok then...

Well...

I think it would be better to take Nala as "first female character..."



Rafiki as a female... ?

I'll never watch the musical...you can bet

[Nephilim]

I don't think there's sexism in it any more than there is racism. Why? It's not as if women are inferior in it, they just have a lesser role in the film. Male, female, it's all good.

*shrugs* At the end of the day it's an hour and a half-odd film, so there can only be limited characer development. ;P Nice essay though... I'll come back to this thread and make a real comment that actually makes sense, once I have the time.

[Waterfall]

If the Lion king was trying to be sexist, then the females would probably have been treated a lot differently. If Muffassa did really think that his wife should listen to him when he didn't want to wake up with Simba, then he would have hit her or something. Also, take into account that the dominate hyena, was female. Also, Nala always seems to have the upperhand on simba, and is never affriad to talk back to him and tell him what to do.

[unregistered user]

I [really] don't think TLK had any intentions of being sexist. To me people who "look for" and not so much as to come across such things are just looking for something to gripe about. But that's just my understanding...

O' and hiya, CS! = )

[Sharifu]

I don't think TLK is sexist at all... The three females, Sarabi, Nala and Shenzi, I thought were quite strong and did what they thought was right. (I didn't count Sarafina because she only says a sentence)

So what if there are more male characters then female? The story works good that way.

The movie Ice Age has no female characters... (All I can think of is the mother of that little kid, and she doesn't say anything anyways) I remember people saying it was sexist because it had no female characters. So what? I'm a female and I found nothing wrong with it. What if it was all female? Who really cares? The movie was funny and fun to watch.


Originally posted by Nalalcholist
"Rafiki FEMALE" ? Areyoudrunk ? :die:

Gee that's kind of mean think to say don't ya think? In TLKoB, Rafiki is female, and I think it actually works quite well. Even before I saw TLKoB I knew TLKoB Rafiki was female.

[Huma]

TLK is sexist.

so what?

TLK doesnot focus on family life/structure or have any appliable priciples about intersexual relations. It can be criticized as sexist and should stand such criticism. All the same, it won't undermine its value or at least, won't bother me.

[Huma]

(In real lion prides, once a male is defeated, the new lion[s] are embraced without second thought by the females, who even sit by and allow the new ones to kill their cubs.

mark my objection on that. In real lion prides, the shifting of the dominating males nomally cause uneasiness on both sides, espeaclly when the males are inpatient. the killing of cubs in lion's pride is more or less a inevitable due to the fact both that females don't go into receptive period with their cubs around and that new males cannot wait for cubs to mature before they themselves would be wiped out. Later reserch suggests that the pregnant lioness would even pretend to go into season to try and decive males from killing their new cubs. - lioness are doing anything besides fighting, which is aginst their basic social stucture and curel in itself, to save their cubs.

[chaotic serenit]

But any sort of criticism also offers the possibility of debate regarding said criticism. Just as my argument opens the floor for debate. I did point out that visible sexism could still be possible, but as far as my analysis of the movie went, *I* didn't see it, and I just wanted to state why. I didn't enter this essay gunned with the idea of "It's SO not sexist." Like I said in the intro, I tend to be middle-ground with alot of the issues and do agree to do a back and forth, as the people who have made sexist arguments do make very fair and intelligent points. This essay was as much for my own reflection as it was to share for everyone else.


mark my objection on that. In real lion prides, the shifting of the dominating males nomally cause uneasiness on both sides, espeaclly when the males are inpatient. the killing of cubs in lion's pride is more or less a inevitable due to the fact both that females don't go into receptive period with their cubs around and that new males cannot wait for cubs to mature before they themselves would be wiped out. Later reserch suggests that the pregnant lioness would even pretend to go into season to try and decive males from killing their new cubs. - lioness are doing anything besides fighting, which is aginst their basic social stucture and curel in itself, to save their cubs.

Hmph. That is an issue. I might have to verify my sources regarding that matter, or at least do more research to see how many biologists agree with what was said! Thank you very much for pointing that out. :)


Edit: And after doing some more thorough research on the topic, I realize that you are indeed correct! Females will abandon their cubs in *some* instances, but the majority of time will not. I will fix that point in my essay, so thank you *very* much for pointing that out.

[nafklt]

Originally posted by SoniqueX
I [really] don't think TLK had any intentions of being sexist. To me people who "look for" and not so much as to come across such things are just looking for something to gripe about. But that's just my understanding...

O' and hiya, CS! = )

Dittoness.:ayecapn: ;):bleen:

[Only-now]

Im so glad that you people are smart enough to know the truth! I come to these threads to see if someone actually thinks it IS sexist, or IS racist..but luckily I was spared from having to write a long post and explain why it isnt. Now I can relax and say simply: "The Lion King isn't sexist in ANY way" :P

[Simba Child]

I am sure that the scriptwriters had no intention of making the movies sexist or racist for that matter. I mean, what 4-yr-old is going to tell the difference between racisim and sexism (sry for the ppl that are older and more mature that watch TLK). The movie was targeted for a more younger audience, so, that's my schpeel!

[Prince_Kivoru]

I think those arguments are a waist of time, Why can't people just watch the blasted movies and enjoy them?!

[2 Die FR]

...and haven't we already had this discussion? It's in a thread somewhere...I know because it was one I made...

[Edit] found it

http://leahalalela.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5310

[chaotic serenit]

Wow, I have no idea I missed that. I skimmed through a few pages looking for a similar topic, but I couldn't find one. o_0 All right, mods, if you want, you can delete this thread. I apologize for the repetitive nature.

[2 Die FR]

It's fine- I just put the link there because that thread is related topic-wise. If I'm not mistaken, you're fairly new here, so I wouldn't expect you to remember/find that thread.

[lion_roog]

The Lion King is Sexist!....There's just not enough sex in it...:D

[2 Die FR]

Oh-kay, Roog, that's enough!

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by 2 Die FR
Oh-kay, Roog, that's enough!

What you talking about, we can't let The Man keep us down...Our voices must be heard!...Boycott something, like going to the bathroom to show them we serious...One for all and all for me...=D

And on topic: What isn't sexist these days?...:D

[2 Die FR]

Originally posted by lion_roog
What isn't sexist these days?...:D

I should have a really good comeback, but...words fail me.

[unregistered user]

http://tinypic.com/4pavs

Closed under moderator's discretion...