I figured it out! Something about Simba in SP!

[DarkPaw]

I've been mulling this over in my head forever! No, it's got nothing to do with Simba's personality, sorta...

Well, I got it! Okay, so in The Lion King, do you notice that not-so-subtle...how do I put this? "Sympathetic' look on !ADULT! Simba's face? You know how the eyebrows go up when a character's anxious or worried? Well, even when he's having a good time, Simba has that sympathetic look.

Well, I think that that was lost in SP...but, I always give credit where it's due. In TLK 1.5, Simba has that (along with a bunch of messed up colors fixed...ahem) sympathy again, yet it's much more subtle.


Watch slight bits of the movie. If anyone else notices this, or doesn't, maybe we can find some comparing screen-grabs that'll help other see what I mean! I wish I could get some up here, but I can't do that...people?

I gottit, I gottit! *manaical laughter*...After all theeese years! *hawhawaaaaw!*

[Ralli]

Murr, I think the subtle change in Simba's facial expressions isn't the only off thing about him in SP. :p But yea, he's also pretty off in TLK3. I don't know if they were really focusing that much on such traits for him in the third movie...all of the characters that weren't Timon, Pumbaa, Ma and Uncle Max were off-model.


Now that I think about it, I've never really had a good clear comparison between the three movies' characters...if that makes any sense. Like I'd love to have something of a chart comparing them. Like for (adult) Simba, there would be a picture of him from the original, then a picture of him in the second movie, and one from the third- preferably all in similar poses, full-body, and of good quality. Same with (adult) Nala and the other from the original movie that appear in the other movies. I'd do it myself, but I can't figure out how to screencap shots, and I don't have Simba's Pride on DVD.

[Sadiki]

I have 3 077 or something screen shots of TLK2 (thanks for Vidan) so just tell me what part you want and I will add those captures ;)

[DarkPaw]

Oh yes, other than that, that's the only noticable design thing I see 'off.' But yeah, I was just noticing that. He also seems to be a bit bony (he did live off of insects, I KNOW) during the scenes with Nala, especially when he's on that log! On minute you can see the...I dunno, vein that runs along his dew-claw, the next, he's more filled in. It doesn't bug me...too much.

But the only thing that REALLY ticks me off is the dewclaw in the scenes with Nala! Ugh! Sometimes their roundish,. or no, square, oops, now there's a vein-oh no-now his paws are nice and chunky! Oh no, now they're all flat-like. Oopsies, maybe we shouldmake them angular!

Well, like I said, I'm over that now! Partially...it's just the eyebrow thing he does ;) Don't get me wrong, I love and absolutely ADORE Simba, I'm just one of those irritatingly obsessed people who has to look at every single friggen detail!

*Edit for typos and need to say more.

[DarkPaw]

Really, SimbaTheMighty? Let's see...don't wanna' be too demanding, but how about a shot of a full-bodied Simba from TLK while he's arguing with Nala? You know, just a few 20 seconds before he jumps off the log he's on...or sumthin? Let's see, I dunno, maybe a shot of him after Nala shows up, something that emphasizes his eyebrow expression-a head shot perhaps.

I'm not sure what we need from SP, if you can...anything that has him full-bodied, and then another head shot. Then we could compare the two! I'd really appreciate it for anylitical sake! Thanks a bunch if you can! :D

[va-kasi]

Different artists have different styles. It just shows through even though they used a model sheet.

[Roku]

Maybe Simba got his eyebrows waxed? :evilgrin:

[ThiagoPE]

I would like to the the screen caps of the scenes you are refering to

[Sadiki]

ok.. I try to add those today before going to school, I need to sleep soon and I don't got TLK screenshots just TLK2 on my computer.

[Stellaluna]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Stellaluna/simbas.jpg

Here's some caps of the different movies I took. I never really noticed the difference in his eyes and facial expressions until you said something.

The only major thing that really seems to stand out, for me, is that he looks all bulked-out and Mufasa-ish in the TLK2, but we must remember that he's older in that movie. So maybe they did that on purpose.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Stellaluna
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/Stellaluna/simbas.jpg

The only major thing that really seems to stand out, for me, is that he looks all bulked-out and Mufasa-ish in the TLK2, but we must remember that he's older in that movie. So maybe they did that on purpose.

Maybe he just worked out really hard....or took steroids..you know...Like major league baseball players like to do...:D

[Stellaluna]

Originally posted by lion_roog
Maybe he just worked out really hard....or took steroids..you know...Like major league baseball players like to do...:D

Now that there, Roog, is a most definate possibility. :thinks:

[Lucy Lioness]

Originally posted by lion_roog
Maybe he just worked out really hard....or took steroids..you know...Like major league baseball players like to do...:D

It gets my vote. :D

Or maybe it was the other way round and he let himself go a bit? :cheese:

[lion_roog]

I was riginally going to say maybe he just did it a lot...but that only makes you lean and possibly build muscle in only certian areas of the body depending on how you do it....:D

[Ralli]

Originally posted by lion_roog
I was riginally going to say maybe he just did it a lot...but that only makes you lean and possibly build muscle in only certian areas of the body depending on how you do it....:D



...wow. :o ...my, what images I just got...

[DarkPaw]

Ooh! Thanks for the screengrabs! As you can see, Simba lokks a little bit more like...well, Simba in TLK 1.5! Oops, g2g!

[Fear The Paw]

Nice possibilities.
what about the Adult Nala in TLk 1/2?
They made her look more realisitc in a lioness sence, but was not 100% normal to the TLK stuff

[Stellaluna]

Originally posted by Ralli
...wow. :o ...my, what images I just got...

:eww: Oh my god. Impure thoughts...

[lion_roog]

:haha:...You know you're not that innocent......Oh god, when I was typing that I was singing the line from that Brittany Spears song......I am Impure!..:alone:

[Marijke Rose]

I'd have to say that I think his eyes were larger in TLK, with more area between eyes and eyebrows.. which make him look slightly younger and his eyes appear wider in TLK. In Simba's Pride, his eyes are more Mufasa-ish, as is his muzzle (which isn't quite as slender as it was in TLK) and, as well, the rest of his facial features.
Not sure about TLK3, though. From those pictures, it looks like a bizarre mix between TLK and SP, and it's very difficult to put my finger on what, exactly, is 'wrong'.

Another thing that isn't really a big deal, but is kinda noticable, is that in TLK, whenever the lions were shown in broad daylight, the whites of their eyes were coloured yellow; but at night or twilight/dusk, they were coloured white. In Simba's Pride, and apparently TLK3, they're always yellow no matter what time of the day.

[DarkPaw]

Thanks for getting our discussion back on track! As for the spaces between the eyes and brows, I agree with you! TLK 1.5, you'll notice a glossiness, but, in my opinion, he looks quite okay in LK 1.5. Just me, and there's more obvious messy coloration. For example, Simba's hmm, let's do this in terms of what I'd use to color them with in a coloring book: So, in TLK, and, surprisingly, TLK 1.5, Simba is a 'goldenrod' color, but in TLK II SP, he's orange! Ooh, then I just can't watch it!

Well, to acknowledge Fear The Paw, I haven't really watched TLK 1.5 that much. Tonight's my night off from school-work, so I try some comparisons. I know this is bit obsessive (who am I kidding, I'm freaking PO-sessed), but I was thinking about jotting down Simba/Nala (maybe a few others, tell me who to look for, and I will ;)) differences in the two movies. Then, later, I'll post my information and analysis.

Hmm, just how obsessed do you think that is? Ha, :), well I'll reiterate that I'll look and study any re-occurring characters in the films. I mean re-occuring, so please no characters seen only in one of the movies. I can say this and I know it'll still happen. So, I thought of Zazu? Well, Simba/Nala comparisons are much more certain!:D

[Marijke Rose]

Nala's eye-colour is different between TLK and Simba's Pride, I've noticed.. it's more greenish-blue in TLK, and more blue in SP. I haven't noticed too much else in regards to Nala in the movies.. o.o

I'd go into all the differences between the various designs of Timon as well -he's my favourite character, afteral!- but I'm sure that's already been done countless times!

[DarkPaw]

Ah, yes, Nala's eyes really ARE blue in the second movie...yuckers.

[Stellaluna]

Originally posted by Marijke Rose
Nala's eye-colour is different between TLK and Simba's Pride, I've noticed.. it's more greenish-blue in TLK, and more blue in SP. I haven't noticed too much else in regards to Nala in the movies.. o.o

Here's something interesting the artist Sarafina (http://fanart.lionking.org/Artists/Sarafina/) pointed out reguarding the difference between Nala's face in TLK and TLK1/2. Mind you she drew this, which I think is beautiful. http://fanart.lionking.org/Artists/Sarafina/SaffyDisneysShame.jpg

Here's a site Sarafina made about the true nature of Nala's eyes. http://nala.ru/nalas_eyes.htm

I love how observant she is. I never would have caught these things. =D

[lion_roog]

How does Sarafina do that day to night converting thing? Mabe someone could do one for Simba's eyes...

[Marijke Rose]

I never knew there was any question about the lighting effecting Nala's eye-colour (because I accounted for the lighting changes, I never noticed that her eyes 'changed colour' throughout TLK). I think the lighting effects all the characters' eye-colour. o.o

Thank you very much for posting the link to that page, though, Stellaluna. It is kewl to read it.

And, Sarafina is an amazing artist, from the few pictures of hers I've seen.

[lion_roog]

Originally posted by Marijke Rose

And, Sarafina is an amazing artist, from the few pictures of hers I've seen.

She has amazing art...I use one of her pics as my desktop...The one where Nala is looking all seductive with a flower in her mouth while she's laying in the grass...:D

[Marijke Rose]

Until Stellaluna linked to her gallery, that was one of the only pictures by Sarafina I've ever seen.. (I think the one you described was the first, then someone showed me a couple more, like her 'White Cheetah' picture.)

[DarkPaw]

Okay! The results are in. So, for starters, we're going to have to get a few basic groundrules laid out.
We will be focusing on the main appearance of the TLK characters during the first movie. These descriptions
should be relatively basic. Then, they will be differentiated by the way these appearances change in the other
two movies.

NOTE: This is all for fun and for just spending time with the characters. Please don't take any offense in any way! :)


The appearance of Adult Simba, first off. He has:
A light, almost scruffy red mane with two parted pieces framing his face.
A pinkish nose
A mane that, like his father, Mufasa, has a darker inner 'chest mane'. A light, goldenrod coat.
A set of paws that are rounded at the digits as a cub, and colored lighter at the separation of the digits
A set of paws that noticably switch from being roundish to angular/round to flat to chunky throughout the first movie, and are tipped lighter at the separation of the digits
Eyes that are red, but changeto be a golden color depending on lighting effects (i.e. the stampede scene which causes
Simba's eyes to appear goldish)
When he smiles, he does, but his smile line curves down slightly.
His dewclaws are predominantly round, but are sometimes seen as being squarish, and with a vein (?) running up his leg from them.
He has a characteristic expression that causes him to raise his eyebrows in sympathy. This is shown even while he is pleasant.
He is in a sympathetic mode throughout the movie after his fathers' death which may have something to do with his brows.

That was only a basic run-through of Simba's characteristics. Now, we will compare the above with what I have observed in
both TLK II SP, and TLK 1.5:

Simba, TLK II, SP:

Kept mane fringe about face.
His eyebrows are kept smooth, and the sympathy is gone from his face, with only a few hints of it here and there in the movie, namely when he's discussing Kiara with Nala.
As others have mentioned, I have found that his jaw has been made quite thick and sturdy, giving one an even stronger inferrence
that he is Mufasa's son.
Simba's coat, in this movie, is now a darker, oranger color than is seen in The Lion King.
Simba's smile is a straight, upwards smile, like you'd see in a 'standard' character.
Although not above mentioned, it is maybe important to show that, when Simba is upset or angry, his scowl line leads down to
his nose. This is not the case in the sequal, though it is nothing worth worrying over.
Simba's 'undermane' which is the part of the mane that is located circulating around his shoulders, slightly, and that
'sticks' to his belly. This is darker than was in the first movie.
This is a given, but Simba's mane is larger, thicker, and less scraggly. This, though, makes sense if you consider he's aged
somewhat since the last movie.

To sum it all up: Simba gains a Mufasa likeness that is made rather obvious by his 'filled inness'.


Simba, TLk 1.5:

Simba's sympathetic eyebrow expression is kept, and rather prominently! I find that you see most of the original Simba in
the snail-eating contest.
Oops, the mane piece under Simba's head directly is a light brown when in the hot tub scene, but during the Scar confrontation,
is pops back to a dark, recognizable brown. Most likely a coloring oopsy.
Simba's facial expressions during the flipped around scene of "in short our pal is doomed," I found that Simba looked, well,
stunningly like Simba!
Ooh, when he's running from the Nala argument, you may notice that he sports a Mufasa-jaw!
Paw oopsies are many. Unlike in the original movie, Simba's paws occasionally are an off square, Nala-ish shape. They 'should' be
angular and somewhat chunky.
He keeps his all too well known mane fringes.
I jotted so many exclamation points here. During the ascention to Pride Rock, Simba looks greatly like he really should-like him
self! Woot! Especially when he says, "I couldn't have done it without you guys," the sympathy is omnipresent.
Of course, yuck, sometimes you'll find him with thick black-lined lips! Wow, how'd that happen?
I shall reiterate that teen Simba looks a lot like Simba should in TLK!
During the vine jumping scene, Simba looks a bit off, but nothing to bother anyone.


Whew! I know there's so much more that could be said, and Nala and Scar's anylizations are waiting anxiously in my notebook.
Alas, they will have to wait-this took me a while! Well, enjoy, and remember, this is meant for fun and light-heartedness.

[DarkPaw]

Awww, this didn't interest anybody? Okay, I'll go now *sniffle.* :(

[Stellaluna]

No, I thought it was very interesting. It seemed to settle the matter and looked very thought-out. I just couldn't think of anything to say really.

Anywho, you're really observant Dark. What you wrote was really good. *gives you a cookie* :)

[Marijke Rose]

**Pats DarkPaw**

It's more likely that no one's seen it, or if they have, they didn't have time to read and reply to it.. or didn't have anything to add. o.o
(I didn't have time to read it all before, but I might be able to read it all now.. depends if my fox-fianc? needs the computer or not.)

EDIT: Stupidly wrote "DarkLion" instead of "DarkPaw".. I'm very sorry, DarkPaw.

[Marijke Rose]

I think that 'vein' coming from his Dewclaw that frequently shows up is rather a tendon, but I don't know what the animators themselves were going for.. it's probably just an extra line that is either occasionally forgotten or occasionally added (I don't know the original intentions.. I'd need to see a model, preferably one of the 3D sculpture models that the artists used for reference.)

You generally paid way more attention to Simba than I did throughout the movies. LOL! I was more observant of Timon, but never wrote anything down about it.. just whined about his dark underpaws (the palms of his hands) in 'Simba's Pride', and the absense of any colour-definition (both sides of his hands held the same colour) on his underpaws in 'The Adventures of Timon & Pumbaa'. And, of course, his stripes, haircolour, and the length of his tail.. (And, in "Timon & Pumbaa", EVERYTHING changing randomly because of the different artists in the cheaper studio.)

[nathalie]

I know that probably someone else will say it, so I'll beat them to it: try to use the EDIT button, some don't really like to see double posts :)

(unless you type so much you ran out of characters to use)

[Marijke Rose]

Sorry, Nathalie. On some other forums I go to, editing is ONLY allowed for typo corrections and code-fixes.. otherwise, if you alter the content in any way -by adding or removing text, even if you're not actually altering the original content, but are adding new content- you'd get in trouble (warnings, sometimes a ban if you did it too often).. so I kinda have it stuck in my head not to edit my posts. But, I will try to remember that I SHOULD edit posts here to add content, instead of double-posting.

[DarkPaw]

Originally posted by Marijke Rose
I think that 'vein' coming from his Dewclaw that frequently shows up is rather a tendon, but I don't know what the animators themselves were going for.. it's probably just an extra line that is either occasionally forgotten or occasionally added (I don't know the original intentions.. I'd need to see a model, preferably one of the 3D sculpture models that the artists used for reference.)

You generally paid way more attention to Simba than I did throughout the movies. LOL! I was more observant of Timon, but never wrote anything down about it.. just whined about his dark underpaws (the palms of his hands) in 'Simba's Pride', and the absense of any colour-definition (both sides of his hands held the same colour) on his underpaws in 'The Adventures of Timon & Pumbaa'. And, of course, his stripes, haircolour, and the length of his tail.. (And, in "Timon & Pumbaa", EVERYTHING changing randomly because of the different artists in the cheaper studio.)

Yeah, I guess that it's a tendon-I couldn't find the right word so I through our 'vein.' You know how it is :confused: .

So, yeah, it'd be cool to see if we could get a look at a Simba macquette. Those sculptures are pretty cool. Did'ja know that the idea came out of using a real puppet to find out how Pinnochio would move? Hee, I love some good trivia:evilgrin:

As for me being more observant of Simba, well, I never really paid that much attention to Timon that way, so I should probably get a look in at him. Maybe even Pumbaa. See, the funny thing is, they get Pumbaa done predominantly well. We don't have Cable, and the show makes me want to smack Disney, I don't really watch T/OP show, or House of Mouse. Both make me wanna' hurl over the character design prescision of all of the poor Disney characters.

Whew, well, I'm gonna' go and look for any Macquette pictures for us, it could be prmising-and also pretty fun to jsut look at. In the mean time, I'm still trying to find some screen shots. I'll also post Nala, and, yes, Scar's notes later on today or tomorrow.

[Marijke Rose]

I had a book with TLK Maquettes and cels (and their, at the time current, collector's values... $2,000 and up.. -.-), but I am not sure if I brought it to Germany with me. Otherwise, I'd check in there and offer to try to scan them. Unfortunately, I THINK I gave it away when I moved.. I'm really not sure.

*Chuckles* I understand. Timon was my fave character, so yeah.

I've noticed some differences in Pumbaa's design as well, but mainly between TLK and the T&P show (surprise, surprise.. near-perfection vs. perversly-sloppy, heh..).. not sure about Simba's Pride or TLK 1.5, though.

I will be eagerly awaiting your other two character analysis. ^.^

[DarkPaw]

Okay, I'm keeping my promise. Right now I'll be typing down the analysis of both Scar and Nala. So, we'll first start with Nala. Nala's a bit more subtle in terms of so many facial expressions. So, here goes:

So, for starters, we're going to have to get a few basic groundrules laid out.
We will be focusing on the main appearance of Nala during the first movie. These descriptions
should be relatively basic. Then, they will be differentiated by th way these appearances change in the other
two movies.

The appearance of adult Nala, first off. She has:

When Nala sits, the majority of her belly is shown, and her legs 'recede' in a way that allows you to see her belly. This
makes her sitting position look relatively 'awkward.'
Her eyes, although much controversy has been barked over, are a darkish aquamarine-like color. The shade changes as does
lighting in the movie.
Her brows are a dark brown,and curve to keep the shape of her eye-circle.
Her nose is a dark brown, making her seem 'older' in a respect, than Simba.
Nala's paws a subtle squarish shape, and this includes the digits; her digits are NOT tipped.
Her facial 'benchmark' (like Simba's sympathy), although EXTREMELY subtle, is that of both a motherly concern at times, and a loving, gentle
expression.
Nala's build is neither too skinny nor too fat. She is at ideal proportions, and nothing is too distracting about
her.
Her ears are solid, and do not have any tipping.
Nala's 'lips' are lined blackish/dark, dark brown. The majority of her 'dark browns' would be considered liver-colored
by dog-show judges.

To sum it all up: Nala has a set of subtlties that make her a beautiful character, and she has a mother-like aura.

Nala, TLK II, SP:

Nala's eyes are now UNMISTAKABLY a clear, crystalline blue, there is no excuse that her eye-color relates to lighting now.
Her body, along with and especially, and her face are all pudgier, if you will. This gives the viewer the infference that
she's gained weight substantially.
Her eyebrows are no longer so curvatious, rather, they can choose to 'leave' the rounded eye-circle.
Her nose is a maroon color, and is too down-turning in some places.
When she sits, Nala no longer sits in her odd, belly-showing way.
Her facial attributes (eyes, spec.) are too larger for the space her head can afford.
Her smile, along with her demeanor, is very airy and light. If this analysis wasn't so serious, there'd be a joke about taking
sleeping pills...;)
Her concerning and motherly 'act' has changed to a happy, odd almost 'spiked' not even there, mayube spacy-ness.

To sum it all up: Nala really doesn't feel like Nala, she feels like she's more of a generic brand lioness.

Nala, TLK 1.5

Nala's characteristic sitting appearance has returned. Her belly is exposed.
When Simba and Nala are nuzzling, and I make sure I mean the new animation, her eyes are positioned and shaped correctly...
But as Sarafina (artist) shows us earlier in the thread, her eyes, nose, and other facial attributes are OFF.
Her nose is much too thick, much too olive-green, and is positioned oddly.
Again, to re-iterate, until her scene with Timon and Pumbaa, Nala is generally okay. Then again, the majority of her screen
time is original animation, so I'm not saying much.
During the "In short our pal is doomed" sequence, when Nala is luring Simba after her, she looks much like the seductive cat
she is!
During her scene with Timon and Pumbaa, you'll find that her chest is too prominent.
In an offbeat way, sometimes you'll find that Nala has the square, smooth, short face that characterizes Kiara!
In many places, Nala's subtle square paws often become too round.

To sum it all up: Nala, again, just doesn't feel like Nala!

[Marijke Rose]

Thank you for posting that! Nala was one of the characters that bugged me the most between the three movies. I just couldn't pinpoint WHAT was wrong with her in Simba's Pride. I mean, I noticed a few design mishaps, but I couldn't figure out what it was about demeanor that bothered me.

[DarkPaw]

Yeah, my mom's noticed how much she wasn't 'there'. I mean that as in she wasn't there literally (okay, you bore Simba's child, we're keeping you around for the heck of it), and that she wasn't there mentally, just kind of spaced-out. Much too out of character for her! Sheez! That was, 'okay, you made your point as the seductive, sexy :rawr: (can I say that?), amourous, tough, strong, confident character that you are-but now we don't need you. Buh-bye now!

See? That's just wrong. :eww: